River of Smoke Group Read (June 15th)

Okay, does everyone have their copy? If not, there is still time. Actually, if you haven't read the 1st wonderful book in the trilogy, Sea of Poppies and you are a fast reader, get busy! This launches on the 15th and it should be a lot of fun.

Thread's on the wiki!

I've dropped my star, I have my copy and I can hardly wait. I think River of Smoke is going to top off what is shaping up to be an excellent reading month. I will probably start reading ROS on or about the 15th.

I'm here, too. Really hoping to finish up reading Wolf Hall before we start on this one. Can't wait! Thanks for setting up the thread and for posting the link, Mark!

I'm in--ready to set sail..

Starred in, but won't get my copy of RoS for another week or so.

I'm hoping to join in--I have my copy and a couple of big books to finish up before the 15th.

I have a copy of ROS waiting for me to collect from the library - then I shall see if I can keep up with group reading pace and not get distracted into reading something else first...

I'm with you, Genny. Waiting on my copy from the library.....

I cheated and started reading this book last night. Read about 20 pages and so far it is very good.

Hope the gang is ready! Everyone chomping at the bit? Benita is off and running I see. She needs a big head start, anyway! LOL.

I'm heading out of town for a long weekend and I won't have internet. So the G.R. will have to chug along without me. Ellen agreed to co-host with me, for a few days. Ain't she sweet?
I hope I can squeeze in some reading. I am bringing the book, of course. But by Monday, I'll be full throttle!

Fingers crossed that everyone get's their copy in time!

I will need the head start as I will be at Booktopia - Oxford this weekend. Probably won't get much reading done there.

Hoping to get the book from the library tomorrow or Friday, then I promise to start it along with this illustrious group......

Mark, co-hosting just means I need to pour some ale, start reading the book, and entice others to make brilliant observations, right?

Ellen- You are right on the money, my friend! Usually the G.R.s roll along just fine.

Benita- Have a great time in Oxford. I'm so jealous. They have a nice line-up of authors too. Isn't this the location of Faulkner's house too? Make sure you stop by my thread and tell me all about it.

I too took a sneeky start because I have about three big chunkies going at the same time. I had it loaded as an audio and while I wasn't have any trouble understanding the story, I was having trouble remembering who was who from the original Sea of Poppies read, so i broke down and bought it on the NOOK, and plan to re-read the first chapter and the intro section "The Islands" for the next few days so I can cement the cast before I go on with the audio version.

I sometimes find with very involved stories like this where there are several story lines going at once, that it helps to have the print version to refer to when I'm listening to the audio. I really like the audio however, because it gives the languages such a delightful cadance that my eyes don't always register in my brain.

In my copy of Sea of Poppies there was a map with the route the Ibis took. There is no map inside River of Smoke. It would be helpful to me as a reader to have that map for this book. Already the book has mentioned two island chains and three continents. I love to read, but sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. I consistently complain about the lack of maps and other helpful diagramming in books, but especially the lack of maps. Maps aren't that hard to draw and drawings aren't that hard to insert in books. It can't be the lack of illustrators or map drawers because I happen to personally know two people who do illustrations for many scientific drawings for academic publications. They do it and don't even get paid. And when they do, they consider it a gift or fun money. Why don't publishers do more of maps and other diagram type illustrations?

Benita....I too find maps extremely helpful and for this series, unless one has lived and been educated in Southeast Asia, a map is almost imperative to grasp who staggering this work is. I keep my well-worn copy of The Times concise atlas of world history close by whenever I'm reading something outside my normal radar.

Google Maps gives a good overall picture of where everything is in relation to everything else (Google "Indian Ocean") but I think an historical map is better because then we know what the modern day country was called in the period depicted in ROS.

I am going to start River of Smoke tonight. I too wish there was a map, it's nice to be able to flip to the front or back of the book and see the location of the places one's reading about.

I really wish I could join in...but I haven't read Sea of Poppies yet. :( How long do guys think the thread will be going?

19> The thread doesn't have a planned end-date. You are unlikely to be alone in pushing this read back a bit in order to attend to other things. The life of the thread will just depend on enough people keeping it alive!

I volunteered to "host" the discussion this weekend while Mark is off galavanting somewhere sans internet access. I still don't have my copy but will get it tomorrow at the latest.

Well, I got this book from the library last weekend and started on it a few night ago. Finished the first 2-3 chapters and we're off to a great start! For those who, like me have a terrible memory, especially when it comes to names and keeping characters straight, I don't think a spoiler to say that the major characters are all described in the first chapter in a way that vividly brings them back to mind. That was my experience anyway. I'm with Benita and others and also wish they'd included a map in this one, the story definitely calls for one and since they provided one in the first book, it's strange they didn't do so with this one. Maybe if we write to the publishers they'll include one in future editions?

Got the book yesterday and read just a few pages last night and I agree that it seems like that it's going to live up to expectations. I'm glad to read your comment, Ilana, that the characters get re-created in a sense in the first chapter. Just settling down for a bit of late Saturday afternoon reading.

Yep, a map would be nice. Enjoyable read so far, though. Ghosh is a great storyteller.

It started out completely different than I expected. And I, too, would love a map.

Just into chapter four and the description of the difficulties of transporting plants overseas by sailing ship. Very interesting (really!).

And I don't know if this will work, but I'm trying to post a map of southern China:



It's not detailed enough to show the many small islands described by Fitcher as he orients Paulette to her role in plant collecting, but it's something...... :-)

The city of Canton does not, I think, exist; rather, it's a province in southern China (see map -- Guangdong is "Canton").

Thanks, Ellen!

You're welcome.
And, for any who might have forgotten since reading Sea of Poppies (or who, like me, just have really bad memories for dates/history), the Opium Wars occurred roughly 1839-60, so that is when we are set in time.

Thanks for that great map, Ellen. Now if we just had a pronunciation guide. According to my resident China expert, the city of Guangzhou is known as Canton.

We're having Chinese visitors in mid-July. I'm going to ply them with questions about their country. The son (age 14) is checking out universities across the U.S. We'll show him around Missouri State but he will probably want something on the west coast. They will be visiting our office in Seattle so will also tour your place of work, Ellen.

I hope to begin River of Smoke this evening.

I still haven't picked up my copy from the library - it's waiting for me, I just need to get myself organised! Look forward to catching up with you all soon...

Okay, I'm back from my "gallivanting". I was camping over the weekend in Indiana. The Thread is moving along nicely, thanks to Ellen.
I didn't get as much reading in, these past few days as I would have liked, so I haven't even started ROS, but I WILL.

If you are still waiting or looking for a copy, don't sweat it, there is time. And if you want to read Sea of Poppies first and then jump in, that's fine too!

Thanks for the map, Ellen! Very nice, very helpful.

I don't read much when I travel as I usually am too busy doing other things. In this case I was in Oxford, MS for the Booktopia conference (which was great fun and I will post details over on Marks thread probably tomorrow) but I did manage to read about 30 more pages in the book.

Thanks so much for the map. It helps with the areas around Canton. Maybe I can find a map of Southeast Asia that would work as well. I am now curious about Singapore and Malaysia as well. Wonder why the British built Singapore, and this book provided part of the answer. Maybe Paul can add a little on this subject?

I have just finished reading The Piano Teacher by Janice Lee and this one was set in Hong Kong during and after WWII so the map of that area of China helped me figure out the relationship of Macau, Kowloon, and Hong Kong as well.

I dove in by reading one chapter but I have a couple of other books to finish up before I really get going. I agree a map would be helpful (and thanks Ellen for supplying one!)

Like the pilgrimage to Deeti's shrine, in the opening pages, I have finally started. It's like slipping into a cool pond, on a hot day...

No glossary in this one though! Hmmmm....Have to dig out SOP.

I love Ghosh's characters! I particularly like Bahram, in the early going and now his friend Zadig.

I thought it strange that there was no glossary in this one too. But I have to admit, the glossary in SoP was not very helpful... perhaps they got some neg feedback on that.

Do wish they had a map. I referred to the one in SoP quite often. Ah, well. Another workout for my imagination... no time to look up or memorize any geography here.

>35 -Cee-:: No problem, Cee. You can always use a chicken wishbone and some grains of rice as described on Page 87 along with your imagination to make your own map.

Or maybe this will be helpful.

Donna- Great job, thanks! Just in the nick of time too, I was just trying the wishbone & rice bit.

I'm taking this one really slow....in several spots, listening, then re-reading or vice versa. I love the sing-song cadences of the spoken word and it helps me cement these characters. I remember when I read Sea of Poppies I did the same thing. It really wasn't until about 150 pages in that I felt like I had the various story threads firmly in my mind.

Planning to carry both RoS and Wolf Hall with me to jury duty tomorrow. I have this fantasy that I will essentially spend the day reading in the municipal court building....

The maps of China are helpful with that part of the story, but what about Singapore, Malaysia, the Mauritius Islands, and the mother country India? Since there are so many threads in this story perhaps there are no maps because they thought that once they started they wouldn't be able to stop putting in maps!

I also missed the glossary, but think that it might not be there because the glossary/language was part of the story. All those people trying to communicate with each other in different languages. Now Paulette and Fitcher seem to be communicating in English. I am not sure about Bahram and Zebig or Neel and Ah Fat, but without Zachary in the story it seems that there isn't the need for the pidgin language that everyone was using to communicate. I suspect that Bahram and Zebig are using a form of Arabic or Farsi because Bahram is a Parsee and would probably know Farsi because of that and since Zebig has a family in Cairo I would guess he is speaking Arabic. Prior of the arrival of the European powers in the Indian Ocean and the China Sea the lingua franca would have been Arabic since trade was primarily conducted by Arabs. The Chinese and Indian merchants would have had to be proficient in Arabic.

The multitude of languages in this environment amazes me. It still does. That is why the idea of Neel's dictionary is so amazing. I ended up reading the glossary in that book and found it very entertaining. Perhaps the author and the publisher thought that readers of these books would have the first book in hand when they read the second. I also think that they might not have included maps and the glossary because they would add extra pages. Extra pages cost more money.

By-the-way, did anyone notice the luxurious feel of the pages of this book? Just like in the first book. My copy is the hardback edition and I just love touching those pages. I was reading this book at Booktopia and was happy to let other readers feel the pages. That is so nice of the publishers since I am sure that paper cost extra.

A copy of River of Smoke: check
Finished the other book I was reading: check
Time to read: check
And.......... Go

I'm really excited to join this group read. I have read Sea of Poppies only a few weeks ago. I loved it, but found it quite difficult as well so I hope you guys can help me when in need.

We're definitely here for one another, Lilian. Welcome!

I love this description of the Wordy-Market, (great name too!): "Here, even more than in other bazars, buyers were well-advised to examine their goods carefully because many were marked by bloodstains, bullet holes, dagger punctures and other unsightly disfigurements". Priceless!

Lilian- Welcome a board! We are a friendly bunch, ask us anything.

Golden Camellia



Napoleon at Saint-Helene

Mark, I loved that portion you quoted too! Thanks for posting all the helpful images, Ellen, Donna and Mark. I was wondering what a Golden Camellia looked like...

Mark, thanks for posting the picture of the Golden Camellia.

I admit to feeling somewhat guilty about chopping down a very old Camellia tree in our back yard (it was not Golden, however) --- it was too close to the house and providing unwanted shade in this gray climate. Still, I felt badly eliminating a very old tree.

I'm reading chapter 6 right now -- Robin is telling Paulette about why he wants to go to Canton -- hilarious.

I am loving River of Smoke, this author sure knows how to tell a story! I am just about to begin Chapter 11.

Hi everyone,

I'm reading chapter six and I think I'm in need of some assistance. I'm struggling with all the different religions and religious habits that are mentioned and described. Can somebody please explain the religion part to me up to this point in the book? Also can somebody tell me what a chop is? And finally does anybody know how much of what is told about Canton, the trade between foreigners and the Chinese, the rules that are explained by Zadiq to Napoleon etc. are historically correct?

#49 - I don’t know a lot about this time period, but I do believe that Ghosh has done extensive research and his facts are correct.

Being a book about trade and the people that were involved with trading means that many religions are involved. Just a quick look at the great world trading powers that were in play at Canton shows us the diversity of religions - the Muslin Arabs, Roman Catholic Portuguese and Spanish, Protestant Dutch, English and American, Buddhist Chinese, Hindus & Muslim from India. Each religion of course, had it’s own rules, regulations and diet.

Regarding a Chop - apparently this word came from the Hindi word Chapa, and the Malay word Cap, meaning rubber stamp. So needing a chop to go somewhere mean receiving official permission. These chops were often small pieces of stone, wood or metal engraved with red ink and bearing the stamp from whatever official was needed.

I think the authenticity of Ghosh’s research is shown in the following excerpt from Wikipedia:

"From the inception of the Canton System by the Qing Dynasty in 1756, trade in goods from China was extremely lucrative for European and Chinese merchants alike. However, foreign traders were only permitted to do business through a body of Chinese merchants known as the Thirteen Hongs and were restricted to Canton (Guangzhou). Foreigners could only live in one of the Thirteen Factories, near Shameen Island, Canton and were not allowed to enter, much less live or trade in, any other part of China.

There was an ever growing demand for tea in the United Kingdom, while acceptance of only silver in payment by China for tea resulted in large continuous trade deficits. A trade imbalance came into being that was highly unfavourable to Britain. The Sino-British trade was dominated by high-value luxury items such as tea (from China to Britain) and silver (from Britain to China), to the extent that European specie metals became widely used in China.
Britain had been on the gold standard since the 18th century, so it had to purchase silver from continental Europe and Mexico to supply the Chinese appetite for silver. Attempts by the British (Macartney in 1793), the Dutch (Van Braam in 1794), Russia (Golovkin in 1805) and the British again (Amherst in 1816) to negotiate access to the China market were vetoed by the Emperors, each in turn.

By 1817, the British hit upon counter-trading in a narcotic, Indian opium, as a way to both reduce the trade deficit and finally gain profit from the formerly money-losing Indian Colony. The Qing Administration originally tolerated the importation of opium because it created an indirect tax on Chinese subjects, while allowing the British to double tea exports from China to England which profited the monopoly for tea exports of the Qing imperial treasury and its agents.
Opium was produced in traditionally cotton-growing regions of India under British East India Company monopoly (Bengal) and in the Princely states (Malwa) outside the company's control. Both areas had been hard hit by the introduction of factory produced cotton cloth, which used cotton grown in Egypt. The opium was sold on the condition that it be shipped by British traders to China. Opium as a medicinal ingredient was documented in texts as early as the Tang dynasty but its recreational use was limited and there were laws in place against its abuse.
But opium became prevalent with the mass quantities introduced by the British (motivated, as noted above, by the equalisation of trade). British sales of opium in large amounts began in 1781verification needed and between 1821 and 1837 sales increased fivefold. East India Company ships brought their cargoes to islands off the coast, especially Lintin Island, where Chinese traders with fast and well-armed small boats took the goods for inland distribution."

Hope some of this helps.

Judy, on behalf of all of us, thanks so much for posting that important information. It helps to have a refresher course, even if we did, sometime in the dark past know (or at least hear about) much of it.

"Bahram closed his eyes and laid his cheek against her neck; once again he was weightless, afloat in the mist. He allowed himself to drift along, on the river of smoke, and when his sleep broke he was amazed to find that his arms were empty and she was gone."

I just finished Chapter 11. How is everyone else doing?

Judy- What a fantastic job! Thank you! And I would have to agree with you, that it looks like Ghosh has done some serious homework in the preparation of this book. It's actually mind-boggling the amount of description that he goes into and the wide variety of subjects too.

I do miss Deeti though!

I'm in the middle of chapter 11.

Judy, thanks for posting that summary. Good quick reminder of some of the context, and validation for my own sense that Ghosh has written a novel set in authentic historical context.

I finished River of Smoke this morning. I rated it five stars even though I think I was more captivated by the story in Sea of Poppies. What I really loved in ROS was the history. His accuracy, rich detail, and colorful descriptions of Canton made this book an unforgettable read.

Dear Judy,

Thank you so much for your elaborate answer. I really appreciate it, as do all the others I see. I think I actually like RoS more than SoP, but fortunately there are many more chapters to enjoy so I can still change my mind. Really interesting to hear what other people think.

#56 - Thanks Lillanboerboom and everyone else. I find this time in history very interesting and I am now looking forward to the third book to see where Ghosh takes us next. Does anyone know when we can expect the next book?

Thanks Judy for that historical background. I am about to start Chapter 6. I took a little detour to reread the end of Sea of Poppies, to refresh my memory of some of the characters (it helped). I agree that Ghosh is an amazing storyteller.

Judy- 5 stars! Yah! I'm sure it will be at least a couple years before the 3rd book. Can you imagine the research this guy does? It must be staggering.

58> That seems like a worthwhile detour, especially for those of us who read SoP several months ago.

I finished this wonderful book yesterday. I rated it 4.6 stars because I liked it slightly less than Sea of Poppies. Like others, I am eager for the next installment.

I thought Ghosh cleverly made the transition from Deeti's experience in the "eye" of the storm to the mythology of the cave ritual and her watching over her people and "seeing" their future together.

Once again Ghosh brilliantly used language to show the many cultures that came together in Canton. Since Paulette was barred from Canton because of her gender and ancestry, Ghosh was able to give much inside information in a humorous way through those letters from Robin. I liked how he poked gentle fun at her unsuccessful translations that provoked misunderstandings. Sometimes letters in a novel seem forced, but these fit the story so well that they flowed along with everything else that was taking place in the story leading up to...

***SPOILER***
The Queen Mother of all drug busts! So was that 'police action' the first Opium War? **End Spoiler**

I am being lazy and letting Judy do the background education. Thank you for that most interesting fact-filled post upthread!

I completed this wonderful novel this evening. Not going to say much so as not to spoil anything, other than that the ending was more moving than I expected. Wonderful characters, delightful humor, and a bit of education besides. Well worth reading. I'm glad this GR motivated me to move this one up on my TBR pile.

Slow go here, but just so enjoyable. I'm hoping to settle down and finish it this weekend, but a couple other must reads got in the way.

I haven't gotten much read in the book since I was at the library conference for most of the last week. However, I really like this book. It reminds me of Thousand Autumns of Jacob de Zoet in many ways. But especially in the history of trade and all the laws and regulations regarding trade with foreigners that was common to both China and Japan. I find it funny that the British couldn't imagine that the Chinese didn't want their products. All that explanation about trade deficits sounds remarkably very modern.

In both SOP and ROS I am struck by the historical ignorance of many Westerners. When the U. S. first invaded Afghanistan I asked people if they remembered that the Russians were essentially defeated in that country. Most people didn't care and said that the Russians had a bad army, or that they were bankrupt so of course were bound to loose the war. Even if that were all true that still doesn't explain why the British army - the undisputed finest in the world in the 1800's in terms of equipment and experience - were soundly defeated in not one, but two wars in Afghanistan. Most American's don't know that there was a First and Second Afghan War, let alone a First and Second Opium War. I realize that no country wants to be portrayed in such an evil light as Britain would be if people did know more about the Opium Wars, but it would help many of us if there were more light shed on this sordid part of history. I can only be thankful that author's like Ghosh are brilliantly enlightening readers while entertaining them at the same time. (I learned about the Afghan Wars and the Tribal Lands of Pakistan by reading M. M. Kaye's wonderful Far Pavilions and can only be thankful for that enlightening and entertaining book.) Sometimes I just love historical fiction.

I have just finished the chapter where Bahgram and Zabig are visiting Napoleon. What fun that chapter is. Loved the description of the Zoroastrian faith as well. Now there is something about which I need learn more! And to think that my first exposure to that faith was through Jennifer Roberson's Sci-Fi series Tiger and Del.

I've slowed my reading pace on this one to a crawl, since I'm not going to finish it this month and I don't want to feel pressured to do so. I've just completed Part I and am enjoying it very much. I agree with benitastrnad that historical fiction like this is such a pleasant way to be immersed in forgotten or never-learned history!

I finished ROS on Monday and thought it was terrific. I might still give SOP the edge but that's okay. I hope everyone is still enjoying it. And I agree it's the kind of book you need to take your time with.

Anne- Please take you're time. It's a book to be savored.

I've still not started, but am so pleased to hear all your positive reactions. I'll be getting round to it in July.

I just finished it last night. Stayed up well past my bedtime to do so. I'm a bit sad the journey is over, but then there's book 3 to look forward to eventually.

***Slight Spoilers Ahead***'

Was anyone else as amused as I was by the descriptions of the dances that followed the fine dinners? I thought that was hilarious. I also kept expecting that Paulette would make an appearance in Canton after all, since she'd already successfully passed herself off as a boy before. I wonder if we'll get to read more about Deeti, Kalua, Jodu Ah Fat and Baboo Nob Kissin in the next book? Though it seems a safe bet that Neel will play an important role again, since he seems to be an important link so far. Reading the acknowledgments, it seems a lot of the characters in ROS are based on real-life personalities, which I suppose they'd have to be for historical accuracy. Will have to look into that.

I am just starting to read about Paulette and Hong Kong. I am still intrigued and want to do some more research on both Singapore and Hong Kong. If I get time will do it today and post it here.

Well, you have all "sold" me on River of Smoke. I have Sea of Poppies on the shelf - started it a while ago but never finshed it. Off to start it again. Does anyone know when the third book is expected?

This little tidbit or sidelight, is for all of you who are also reading Hilary Mantel's Wolf Hall and for some of you who have read Jerome K. Jerome's Three Men in a Boat or Connie Willis's To Say Nothing of the Dog. In the passage I just read Paulette and Fitcher are talking about the nurseries in Canton and Fitcher makes a reference to getting lost there would be like being in Hampton's mizzy maze. I remembered that I had read somewhere that Cardinal Wolsey had created a maze at Hampton Court. I looked it up in Wikipedia and sure enough there was a Hampton Court Maze. The entry came with a drawing of the maze but for some reason I could not get it to copy and drop in here. Maybe somebody else can.

In short, the Hampton Court Maze, as it is currently, "is a hedge maze planted some time between 1689 and 1695 by George London and Henry Wise for William III of Orange at Hampton Court Palace. The maze covers a third of an acre and contains half a mile of paths. It is possible that the current design replaced an earlier maze planted for Cardinal Thomas Wolsey. It was originally planted with hornbeam, although it has been repaired using many different types of hedge. The maze is in 60 acres (0.2 km2) of riverside gardens. It has been described by many authors, including Defoe, and the humorist Jerome K. Jerome, who wrote in Three Men in a Boat:

"We'll just go in here, so that you can say you've been, but it's very simple. It's absurd to call it a maze. You keep on taking the first turning to the right. We'll just walk round for ten minutes, and then go and get some lunch."

...Harris kept on turning to the right, but it seemed a long way, and his cousin said he supposed it was a very big maze.

"Oh, one of the largest in Europe", said Rachael.

"Yes, it must be", replied the cousin, "because we've walked a good two miles already!"

Harris began to think it rather strange himself, but he held on until, at last, they passed the half of a penny bun on the ground that Harris's cousin swore he had noticed there seven minutes ago.

Jerome exaggerates the hazards of the maze. The maze has relatively few places at which the path forks and at all but one fork (in Jerome's time) the wrong choice led to a dead end at the end of a short corridor."

The entry goes on to say that there are modern mazes that are larger and more elaborate. Also, the Hampton Court Maze has been modified to give it some new forking places that are not original to the plan, but you can still find your way out by always turning to the right.

I remember running around Hampton Court maze when I was about 5 years old. It seemed very big then!

Benita, here's the diagram from wikipedia showing the solution to the maze:



And here is a picture of the maze as it appears today:



I remember finding that part from Three Men in a Boat very funny, though I had no idea what maze they were talking about. I'll know for next time!

As one of those who is currently reading Wolf Hall (and I remember that reference in RoS), thank you for the tidbit, Benita! And the pictures, Ilana.

I read about 50 pages of the book this weekend. It was so hot here that the only place worth being was the swimming pool. However, it was invaded by children and they splashed so much it was hard to keep the book dry. I finally had to move back from the pool edge and that was too much in the sun. It made it hard to read the book.

I have found it interesting that Bahram is trying to be an ethical drug dealer. Can a person do that? I was amazed that he got so angry with the drug dealer and yet he is one as well. Or is that just my modern sensibilities? I also find the ethical problems of the British merchants (can you even call them that?) to be so twisted as to be laughable and wonder what Richard Pryor would have said about them? Dancing with men? Smuggling drugs? No wonder they conquered the world.

Robin Chinnery's letters are simply wonderful reading.

thanks smiler 69 for the addition of the diagram for the Hampton Court Maze. The green picture of it is delightful and makes me want to go walking in there.

I spent almost two hours yesterday stuck in the Doctor's office. (40 minutes of that in a paper gown in a cold room - waiting ... I wasn't happy when I finally saw the Dr. Emergency or no, there was no excuse for that.) I read 35 pages of this book. It is so heartbreaking to see Bahram's world come apart in slow motion. Did anybody else notice the small connection between this book and the previous one - the dictionaries? Neel speaks to the printer about doing one for the other languages frequently spoken in Canton.

I also noticed that Ghosh puts in lots of references to the frequency of travel between India, South Asia, and South China. Neel is on his way to eat at a Chinese food boat that specializes in Bengali food whose proprietress is Chinese but born in Bengal. These people moved around as much as we do in the modern world. Later on in this passage the author says that the boat owners saw a need for a business and filled it, much the same as the owner's parent did in Calcutta. It seems that Neel is also doing that with his dictionaries. Neel also has commented on the way that Bahram does business saying that he is an Admiral and Vico is the ship's captain. Neel acknowledges that the two of them did a lot better running their company than Neel did running his small fiefdom. It seems to me that this book is very pro-business and in the modern world this would be applying the basics of business to other venues, and is analogous to using the business model to run an academic institution.

I finally got time to look up some Wikipedia information about Canton and thought I would pass it on.

Canton is is the historical name for the modern Chinese city of Guangzhou. It has also been known as Kwangchow. The name for the city was officially changed in 1918 from Canton to Guangzhou. Before that in Chinese records it did not have a name and only an official designation. It was the Portuguese who gave it the name Canton. It is not known whether this is because the word was a variant of a Portuguese word Cantao or if it was a phonetic approximation of the local name for the port and the surrounding area. (Am I beginning to sound and think like Neel?) Today it is the capital and largest city of the Guangdong province. It is the third largest city in China and in 2010 it had a population of 12.87 million. The city has been a port since its earliest history and was the flash point for the Opium Wars between China and Britain.

In my reading last night I came across a mistake in this book. My copy is the hardback version of the book. On page 345 at the beginning of chapter 13 the second paragraph of that chapter is a letter from Robin to Paulette. It reads, "Having now re-read the last entry I have decide to leave intact the interrupted sentence with which it ended: for just as the half-eaten meals on the tables of Pompeii are proof of the unforeseen nature of Etna's eruption, ..." The problem here is that Mount Etna is not located near Pompeii. Mount Etna is in Sicily. Pompeii is in Italy. The mountain/volcano close to Pompeii, and destroyed that city in 79 AD, is Mount Vesuvius. I am sure that this is just an overlooked fact missed by Ghosh and his fact checkers, but I admit it bugged me. Especially since Pompeii, Etna, and Mount Vesuvius are all so well known.

I was amused by a passage in chapter 13 where Robin Chinnery is commissioned to paint a picture for Mr. Chan. It is in fact to be a copy of a painting done by his father. It struck me that this passage is all about copying and displays a very cavalier attitude about copying which easily extended to modern times. The thought flited through by head that the Chinese started copying intellectual property early and they are still doing it. page 385 in my copy is where this passage is found.

This book also has a very good description of globalization. This is found in chapter 15 and in my copy it is on page 422. Bahram is talking with Zadig Bey about the ship the Anahita.

"let me tell you why my late father-in-law took so much care over this vessel. For years he had been building ships for the English - for the East India Company and for the Royal Navy. Five frigates he built, and three ships of the line and any number of smaller vessels. He could build them better and cheaper in Bombay than they could in Portsmouth and Liverpool - and with all the latest technical improvements too. And when the shipbuilders of England realized this, what do you think happened? They talk of Free Trade when it suits them - but they made sure that the rules were changed so that the Company and the Royal Navy could no longer order ships from us. Then they created new laws which made it much more expensive to use India-built ships in the overseas trade. My father-in-law was among the first to understand what was happening. He knew that under these conditions the Bombay ship-building trade would not survive for long. That is why he wanted the Anahita to be the best and the best and the most beautiful ship he had ever built. He used to say to me in those days: Bahram, you see what is happening to our shipyards? The same thing will happen also to all our other trades and crafts. We have to find alternatives or it is just a matter of time before we are drive out of business.

But what does that mean, Bahram-bhai?

It means we have to find a way Zadig Bey, our own way. We have to move our businesses to places where the laws can't be changed to shut us out.

What places?

I don't know. Maybe England itself. Or elsewhere in Europe. Perhaps even in China. Or perhaps - here Bahram flashed Zadig a sly smile - perhaps we could have a place of our own. With enough money we might be able to buy a country, no? A small one?" page 422 & 423

This whole thing reminded me of the skirmish between Air Bus and Boeing a few years ago. Air Bus won the contract to build the tankers and Boeing cried foul. Eventually the U. S. Air Force retracted the contract and after an "investigation" awarded the contract to Boeing. Now Air Bus is going to build an assembly factory in Mobile, Al. that will employ upwards of 1,000 people, making them a U. S. company. This is exactly what Bahram has described in this passage.

For a novel this is a very interesting political book.

Just dropping in to say I'm still reading--I've just begun the third part, so I'm reading chapter thirteen.

I agree with you benitastrnad, it strikes me that there are many parallels in this story to present-day events.

Well, I hate to say it, but this is not a summer read for me. My summers are much to hustly bustly, and days are extremely fragmented. I love this book, and I love Ghosh's writing, so I want to do it justice. I'm setting aside for that long dark winter when I have time to nestle down and concentrate.

I finished! Like the first book in this series by the time I got to the last part of the book I couldn't put it down. I loved Robin. Those letters of his were great. Such adventures he had, and his love of life just fills the page. I also liked poor Bahram. Neel continues to grow as a character as well.

This is a book that many people should read as it points out that the past wasn't a golden country.

I thought this book was better than the first one. Maybe I could deal with the language and the rhythm better in this book. Now I can't wait for the next one to come out. I will be telling people about this one. And such a beautiful book. The cover art, and the feel of those pages. Great book.

Hey, everyone! Sorry for the long delay getting over here. I just get bogged down on the other threads. I'm glad a few people are still hanging in there. Go, go go!

Benita- As usual, I love reading your insightful comments. I'm so glad you enjoyed it and that you liked it more than SOP. I gave SOP the slight edge.
We'll have to make sure we do a G.R. of the 3rd book when it comes out.
Now, what about DC??

#83
I post the DC stuff on the DC group read thread. Take a look over there. This thread is for ROS! So yes, I am still reading DC. If you weren't looking at this thread you missed some interesting stuff. There are still several of us reading this one and I think that Paul is also started on ROS. Whether or not he posts here - the information is here and I still have it starred and am not planning on taking that star off anytime soon. Of either this thread or the DC thread.

I love all of the connections that reading stories allows me to make.

Today I am working at my desk and listening to BBC World Book Club. I am listening to Amativ Ghosh talk about his book Shadow Lines. In this interview he said that he started learning to speak Cantonese. If you want to listen to the interview here is the address http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00s473j

Last night I was watching Antiques Road Show on my local PBS station and low and behold one of the featured pieces was a desk made in Canton in the early 1800's. I was not paying much attention at first but what caught my attention was the word "hong." I immediately started listening because I thought "I know that word!" The owner was descended from a ships captain from Rhode Island who sailed back and forth to China. The expert showed all the features of this Chinese made desk. It was made for use as a desk in a hong and then could be used on board ship because it was really a modular piece. It made me wonder if perhaps Bahram had one of these and if Neel would have read the newspapers and done his writing on this kind of desk.

Cool beans!

Wow...thanks for the link to the BBC podcasts. I used to listen to them, and then kinda lost touch. We're going to be "offline" for a couple weeks during our vacation, but I can download some of those before hand, and listen while I not connected.

Just finished and this is part of my review.

There has been some debate as to the relative merits of the two books but both are certainly meritorious. Started out slightly preferring the sequel but in the end I think Sea of Poppies is the better book. For those who have not beaten me to the reading of it we are concerned with several characters who have washed up in or around Canton on the brink of the Opium wars. For those expecting a straight continuation of the previous story they would have been a little disappointed but the introduction of Bahram is a welcome addition to the story and his character is a highlight for me.

Didn't see the point of Paulette to the story and the distraction of her correspondence with Robin as one way as it was I personally found a tad irritating.

Minor grumbles aside though this is great historical fiction and Ghosh presents the different positions of the participants towards the import/smuggling of Opium with delicacy and the opposing views are interesting in their historical context.

I liked the letters to Paulette, but I do think that they were of a completely different tone than the rest of the book. In fact they seemed very modern to me. The homosexual aspects of them seemed very modern and Robin came across as a flaming queen which seems out of place given that these were Victorian times and everything I have read about Anglo-Indian society makes me think that it was a mirror of the British Colonial Victorian culture. It is the tone and the pace of his writing that makes me think modern instead of Victorian and that doesn't fit with the rest of the book. That being said, if Ghosh is correct in his interpretation of the society and culture of the Hongs, then homosexuality was fairly open and accepted - at least in Canton. I am sure that there was an attitude among the merchants that when not at home the mice would play while the cat was away, so what they did in Canton was not what they would do when they were back in jolly old England. I found this revealing and open discussion of the lifestyle to add to the book and I appreciate Ghosh bringing it up. I am sure that this is something that his fellow Indians don't really like as in general I think that Indian society is rather conservative. Not to mention what the Chinese would think of this kind of discussion.

In general I think that Ghosh has tried to present a story that has no villains and few heroes. I also think that there are spots in the novel where he gets a bit preachy (the visit to Napoleon comes to mind). Overall, there is less action in this book and more character development and that is why I liked it. He really let me see what motivated the characters.