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1Doug1943
The Cambridge classicist Mary Beard has an interesting article on the problems involved in translating Thucydides in the 30 September New York Review of Books, here . (But you must be a subscriber to read the full article.)
3Garp83
A friend of mine sent me this piece a little while ago. This was my reply:
I have leafed through the new Kagan book at the store but have no intention of reading it – largely because if you have read Kagan there does not seem to be much of anything new in it. I read Kagan’s Peloponnesian War – his one volume popular abridgement of his four volume opus – and I am actually currently reading the individual scholarly four volumes slowly over time. I am also currently listening to Kagan’s entire undergrad Yale Course “Introduction to Ancient Greek History” which you can download for free in its entirety at:
http://oyc.yale.edu/classics/introduction-to-ancient-greek-history/content/downl...
While I am familiar with much of this material, the 80 year old Kagan is the dean of ancient Greek classical historians and well worth a listen and a read – I encourage you to listen to the course – though he may drive you nuts clearing his throat every three minutes on cue!
The thing about Kagan that is maddening is although he is a brilliant historian, he is like Jay Winik a right-winger who often tends to see today’s politics in yesterday’s affairs, which is of course not only often dangerous but frequently misleading. In his Outbreak of the Peloponnesian War, published in 1969, Kagan basically presents Athens as the democratic west (read United States) vs. Sparta as the totalitarian east (read USSR), which makes for entertaining storytime but is marred by distortion. This is the “Lessons of History” theme jacked up to the nth degree. Could there be some similarities in the hubris of a democratic coalition facing down the forces of coercion – sure, those are timeless! But are there any real striking similarities between the Cold War and the Peloponnesian War – err, not really. Kagan has updated his thesis for today’s war on terrorism. I remain unmoved. But even though his personal commentary that reflects his world view annoys me in his lectures and his books, I will keep reading him and listening to his lectures. The thing is, he is brilliant and you learn a lot and unlike with other historians who inject their views subliminally, Kagan is clear on where he stands so it is relatively easy to lift his ideology from his history.
I read Thucydides early in my Greek studies and therefore there was much I did not fully grasp at the time although I found him surprisingly readable and I got a great deal out of his history. I now own the wonderful Landmark Thucydides and will probably re-read him soon.
The article’s focus on Hornblower’s translation was elucidating but not surprising. I think anyone who studies ancient Greece seriously realizes that these glib quotes in translation from any of these ancient authors are forced and far from entirely accurate. Still, in the two examples cited in the article, Hornblower may have translated with greater accuracy, but the essence of both examples seem to me very much identical to Crowley’s more witty if less scientific version of the same. In the Melian dialogue, the concept is that the stronger will prevail, whatever the second part may mean. I certainly recall reading both in the original and I got the same interpretation. Maybe I’m just brilliant too! (I doubt it!!!)
I think Kagan’s willingness to take Thucydides’ speeches as wholly accurate reporting is naïve, but on the other hand I don’t think Thucydides is lying either. He tells us he is reporting the essence of what is said rather than verbatim and I think we should take that with the same grain of salt we would take the same comment today by a reporter for a major news medium.
I think Kagan’s admiration for Pericles with a dose of criticism for his faults is too mild; I think his efforts to restore credit to Cleon are misguided. To my mind, although Thucydides admired Pericles, it was Pericles’ repeated re-election to the archonship that hijacked the democratic system and put him in a position of power that was contradictory to the democracy. Pericles’ stubborn pursuit of his aggressive foreign policy brought on the disastrous Peloponnesian War, alienated the allies and destroyed Athens “Golden Age.” I don’t admire Pericles at all. At the same time, I think the condemnation of Cleon by Thucydides and Aristophanes and others is well-merited. He may have been brave and his strategy may have furthered the war aims, but I think he had a critical opportunity to make peace with Sparta and end the war before it devastated Greece and he threw that away to earn personal honor on the battlefield and further entrench Athens war effort. When he was killed in battle, he – like Pericles, who succumbed to the unanticipated plague – left Athens again rudderless with an unwieldy radical democracy ill-suited to pursuing this kind of long-term conflict.
I remain fascinated by the ancient Greeks and I believe there are indeed “Lessons of History,” but I cringe when historians like Kagan try to rewrite both ancient history and modern times to make tenuous connections.
I have leafed through the new Kagan book at the store but have no intention of reading it – largely because if you have read Kagan there does not seem to be much of anything new in it. I read Kagan’s Peloponnesian War – his one volume popular abridgement of his four volume opus – and I am actually currently reading the individual scholarly four volumes slowly over time. I am also currently listening to Kagan’s entire undergrad Yale Course “Introduction to Ancient Greek History” which you can download for free in its entirety at:
http://oyc.yale.edu/classics/introduction-to-ancient-greek-history/content/downl...
While I am familiar with much of this material, the 80 year old Kagan is the dean of ancient Greek classical historians and well worth a listen and a read – I encourage you to listen to the course – though he may drive you nuts clearing his throat every three minutes on cue!
The thing about Kagan that is maddening is although he is a brilliant historian, he is like Jay Winik a right-winger who often tends to see today’s politics in yesterday’s affairs, which is of course not only often dangerous but frequently misleading. In his Outbreak of the Peloponnesian War, published in 1969, Kagan basically presents Athens as the democratic west (read United States) vs. Sparta as the totalitarian east (read USSR), which makes for entertaining storytime but is marred by distortion. This is the “Lessons of History” theme jacked up to the nth degree. Could there be some similarities in the hubris of a democratic coalition facing down the forces of coercion – sure, those are timeless! But are there any real striking similarities between the Cold War and the Peloponnesian War – err, not really. Kagan has updated his thesis for today’s war on terrorism. I remain unmoved. But even though his personal commentary that reflects his world view annoys me in his lectures and his books, I will keep reading him and listening to his lectures. The thing is, he is brilliant and you learn a lot and unlike with other historians who inject their views subliminally, Kagan is clear on where he stands so it is relatively easy to lift his ideology from his history.
I read Thucydides early in my Greek studies and therefore there was much I did not fully grasp at the time although I found him surprisingly readable and I got a great deal out of his history. I now own the wonderful Landmark Thucydides and will probably re-read him soon.
The article’s focus on Hornblower’s translation was elucidating but not surprising. I think anyone who studies ancient Greece seriously realizes that these glib quotes in translation from any of these ancient authors are forced and far from entirely accurate. Still, in the two examples cited in the article, Hornblower may have translated with greater accuracy, but the essence of both examples seem to me very much identical to Crowley’s more witty if less scientific version of the same. In the Melian dialogue, the concept is that the stronger will prevail, whatever the second part may mean. I certainly recall reading both in the original and I got the same interpretation. Maybe I’m just brilliant too! (I doubt it!!!)
I think Kagan’s willingness to take Thucydides’ speeches as wholly accurate reporting is naïve, but on the other hand I don’t think Thucydides is lying either. He tells us he is reporting the essence of what is said rather than verbatim and I think we should take that with the same grain of salt we would take the same comment today by a reporter for a major news medium.
I think Kagan’s admiration for Pericles with a dose of criticism for his faults is too mild; I think his efforts to restore credit to Cleon are misguided. To my mind, although Thucydides admired Pericles, it was Pericles’ repeated re-election to the archonship that hijacked the democratic system and put him in a position of power that was contradictory to the democracy. Pericles’ stubborn pursuit of his aggressive foreign policy brought on the disastrous Peloponnesian War, alienated the allies and destroyed Athens “Golden Age.” I don’t admire Pericles at all. At the same time, I think the condemnation of Cleon by Thucydides and Aristophanes and others is well-merited. He may have been brave and his strategy may have furthered the war aims, but I think he had a critical opportunity to make peace with Sparta and end the war before it devastated Greece and he threw that away to earn personal honor on the battlefield and further entrench Athens war effort. When he was killed in battle, he – like Pericles, who succumbed to the unanticipated plague – left Athens again rudderless with an unwieldy radical democracy ill-suited to pursuing this kind of long-term conflict.
I remain fascinated by the ancient Greeks and I believe there are indeed “Lessons of History,” but I cringe when historians like Kagan try to rewrite both ancient history and modern times to make tenuous connections.
4anthonywillard
Impressive analysis. I'm copying this post for future reference.
6Doug1943
Agree with #4.
It's humbling, or should be, to come across non-academics who have deep expertise in some subject in which I know more than the average person, but in which I am still clearly pretty close to zero on the knowledge scale.
If an academic posted #3, I could say, "Well, sure, he's a flaming professor and has all day to read and think about these things." But now I am forced to admit I have no good excuse for my ignorance.
In compensation, I am going to shamelessly steal all the analysis above, and hold it in reserve, ready to stun the table into silence at the next dinner party where there is another ancient history amateur.
More, please.
It's humbling, or should be, to come across non-academics who have deep expertise in some subject in which I know more than the average person, but in which I am still clearly pretty close to zero on the knowledge scale.
If an academic posted #3, I could say, "Well, sure, he's a flaming professor and has all day to read and think about these things." But now I am forced to admit I have no good excuse for my ignorance.
In compensation, I am going to shamelessly steal all the analysis above, and hold it in reserve, ready to stun the table into silence at the next dinner party where there is another ancient history amateur.
More, please.
7Garp83
Well thanks for all the kind words but I'm not sure I deserve them. I read so many postings on LT and think -- wow that guy/girl knows so much more than I do!
I have more or less immersed myself in ancient Greek studies over the past few years so I have absorbed a lot of information -- I've read many books and I've taken a number of Teaching Company courses. Still, I feel there is so much more to learn that I have only scratched the surface.
Of course, I'm still going forward. I am close to the end of my first semester of reading/writing Classical Greek -- the hardest thing I've tried to do since I quit smoking some years back. Language has never been my strong suit and at 53 years old it is a struggle indeed. And I am in week 4 of a masters degree program course in Ancient Greek Civilization. So there's a long road ahead.
Still, I appreciate the compliments and it is nice to know there remains an audience for this kind of analysis.
PS I remain envious of those professors who can think and read all day ....
I have more or less immersed myself in ancient Greek studies over the past few years so I have absorbed a lot of information -- I've read many books and I've taken a number of Teaching Company courses. Still, I feel there is so much more to learn that I have only scratched the surface.
Of course, I'm still going forward. I am close to the end of my first semester of reading/writing Classical Greek -- the hardest thing I've tried to do since I quit smoking some years back. Language has never been my strong suit and at 53 years old it is a struggle indeed. And I am in week 4 of a masters degree program course in Ancient Greek Civilization. So there's a long road ahead.
Still, I appreciate the compliments and it is nice to know there remains an audience for this kind of analysis.
PS I remain envious of those professors who can think and read all day ....
8Cynara
I'm inspired by the many passionate amateurs. There is something to be said for the rigor of professional academia, but they're both important to the future of the humanities.
We all start and end as amateurs in our fields, though some of us go professional at some point; without the overall ecosystem of readers, amateurs, enthusiasts, popularisers, novelists, and academics, the field would stagnate - either through intellectual atrophy, or a loss of wonder.
Anyway, I digress. Thucydides! Yes.
We all start and end as amateurs in our fields, though some of us go professional at some point; without the overall ecosystem of readers, amateurs, enthusiasts, popularisers, novelists, and academics, the field would stagnate - either through intellectual atrophy, or a loss of wonder.
Anyway, I digress. Thucydides! Yes.
