Half Blood Prince Discussion Chapters 16-20

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Half Blood Prince Discussion Chapters 16-20

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Jun 2, 2008, 8:18am

More than halfway there! This week we read:

16: A Very Frosty Christmas
17: A Sluggish Memory
18: Birthday Surprises
19: Elf Tails
20: Lord Voldemort's Request

Have at it!

Jun 2, 2008, 8:32am

My books are now unpacked, so this is my week for catching up with the discussion. I may revive some of the older HBP threads as I go, too!

Jun 2, 2008, 8:40am

Mandy's behind too, I'm sure she will join you, I'll send her a profile comment, so she knows. I'll go ahead with my Chapter 16 notes:

1. I know we all love the end when Fleur shows that she does love Bill, but she's really annoying in this book. I can't imagine behaving the way she does to my future in-laws (when I had them).

2. I wonder how the "Levicorpus" spell got around. If it's non-verbal and Snape invented it, he probably shouldn't have told anyone how to do it. He should have known it would get around to the people he would least like to have know about it.

3. So Advanced Potion Making is almost 50, which means we must have been right Foggi, the book was Eileen's first and she passed it on to Snape. Not surprising I suppose, they weren't well off were they?

4. Seriously Lavender? Did you really think a teenage boy would want that necklace. That girl is ridiculous!

5. Love Fleur and Harry inadvertantly making Lupin uncomfortable about Tonks. Molly did it on purpose I'm sure.

6. I marvel at Scrimgeour bringing up Umbridge. He can't be that daft. He must know at least some of what went on the previous year. Why oh why would you mention her to Harry when you're trying to get on his good side?!

7. The conversation with Scrimgeour is another example of Harry's recent maturity.

Jun 2, 2008, 11:47am

Okay, so 3 hours and no one has anything to say. I thought I was more interesting this week than last week and maybe people would find something for discussion. Oh well, perhaps we will have better luck with Chapter 17:

1. Do you think all students were going to McGonagall's office? Don't you think it would make sense to go to the Head of Household's office? Shouldn't they then have to be more specific than "Hogwarts"? I have so many issues with the Floo Network.

2. I love the password "Abstinence". It fits so well into one of the themes of the book. I think its the best of the entire series!

3. I've said it before, but I'm so glad we get so much harry and DD in this book. I wonder if the end would be as emotional if we had the same amount of DD as in the previous books (not much!)

4. A beginning of the explanation of the Trace, which most of you know I have big time issues with as well. It doesn't make sense.

5. The Pensieve: Once you collect a memory into the Pensieve is it gong until you put it back? It would seem so from Snape in OotP. Is it different from collecting them into a crystal phial or is DD essentially stealing memories? If it is different, how? If not, why didn't Snape just collect his memories in a phial in OotP and avoid the temptation of the Pensieve?

Jun 2, 2008, 1:57pm

Ooh, good points about the Pensieve! I suspect that Dumbledore has done more research into memory than anyone. I think the Pensieve was one of his inventions? Obviously, wizards have been practicing Legillimancy/Occlumancy for a long time, but for how long have they known how to remove a memory from the subject's mind? Perhaps it's more difficult than it looks? Perhaps it's not a widespread practice?

It would appear that a memory, when removed from the mind, is gone -- but then, that doesn't explain how Slughorn still had the original and yet had the altered one that he gave to DD, as well -- unless, by altering a memory, a copy is automatically made?

I've been fascinated by the Pensieve and Rowling's treatment of memory ever since I first read the series. The memories that Harry sees appear infalliable -- no distortion except in the obvious case of Slughorn's intentionally altered memory. Also, memories appear to contain information that the person who "remembered" the events might not have paid attention to -- Snape's "worst memory," for example, allowed Harry to overhear a conversation that Snape might have been able to hear, but was most likely ignoring or blocking out. I remember reading somewhere, long ago, and I can't cite my source, that the human brain is capable of remembering basically everything that happens in a lifetime. Rowling, at least, appears to be operating on this principle.

I don't have a good reason for why Snape didn't just put his memories in a flask -- except that the Pensieve is so darned convenient to move the plot along!

Jun 2, 2008, 2:19pm

I have always wondered about that phenomenon myself. In fact, I think I said something along those lines in our OotP reread when we got to "Snape's Worst Memory". I'm intrigued by the idea that one could extricate so much from the mind.

I agree that the Pensieve is likely an invention of DD's. It would explain why we only ever see one and also why in "Lord Voldemort's Request" the cupboard that in Harry's time contains the Pensieve, instead contains drinks.

Here's what I wonder in particular. If, removing the memory makes it gone, then how does DD know what the memories are? After removing them, does he need to then re-experience them in the Pensieve to essentially create a memory of the memory? From reading I do have the feeling that DD knows what is in his memories before he shows them to Harry.

Perhaps it has to do with intent? Snape wanted to completely remove those memories until he put them back, so he did. DD needed a copy of his memories, so that's what he got. What do you think?

Jun 2, 2008, 3:09pm

That makes sense to me.

One of the original questions was whether DD was, essentially, "stealing" memories from the people he collected them from. Thinking it over, I suppose that, at least in some cases, he was. Morfin, for example -- it sounded like he was rather forceful about getting that memory. In other cases, where the subject willingly gave him the memory, perhaps he only took a copy, or at least took the memory with consent. I think that this was another case where DD was considering "the greater good" rather than the comfort and welfare of individuals.

Jun 2, 2008, 3:14pm

#6 I wondered that too! Because in OOTP Snape obviously knows what Harry has seen. My friend posited the theory that the people still retain the memory, but vague and without emotion. Like a marker: here lies the memory of... Not sure if I believe that, but the memory thing is never explained satisfactorily. Anyone able to explain this?

#7 Yeah, DD hint at being rather brutal in his collecting methods. Which I love, because it makes him more complicated. I agree, he definitely had the 'greater good' in mind. DD went from being the kindly old professor to a Machiavellian mastermind in this one. It's scary, and a testament to Rowling that we still care about him so much.

Jun 2, 2008, 3:32pm

#8 I think we might have to wait to see if JKR explains it in "The Scottish Book". I've posited a couple theories, but obviously I have no idea if I'm anywhere close.

I'm interested in what you say about DD becoming Machiavellian in this book. What makes you say that? I could see saying it about DH, or looking in hindsight and saying it from the start of the series, for we know after all that DD was planning and schemeing from the moment he left Harry on the Dursley's doorstep, indeed, what we learn of him in DH shows that he has always had that tendency. In HBP I find him the closest to the kindly professor that we have had in a long time, certainly more so than OotP or even GoF. I'd love to hear more from you on this subject!

Jun 2, 2008, 3:42pm

#9 Forgive my stupidity, but what's "The Scottish Book"?

And I think it's that he's so close to being totally honest with Harry that does it for me. He seems like he's being very truthful, and sharing a lot with Harry, but really he's setting up all these enormous betrayals and horrors. He's lying to everyone, including Snape and Harry.

Maybe it's because I'm biased as HECK about this, but it's also that during this time he's getting Snape ready for what will happen, and that whole plot point upsets me terribly. When he's gone, Snape is utterly alone in his assignment.

Ultimately, I think it's because he manages to control everything that happens in book seven from the grave, in large part because of what happens in DH.

While I agree he's been doing this from book one, and even way before, rereading this book after number 7, you realize just how manipulative he was being. He really does play with Harry's emotions. He has to know how this will affect a kid who's lost so many people in his life. I never noticed it the first time I read the book.

It's weird, because I do love DD, but he does a lot of 'greater good' things that upset me horribly.

Sorry for the length! I get rambly about HP.

Jun 2, 2008, 3:51pm

Ramble on, Ellevee! (Of course, I say this partially because we tend to agree so often, especially on . . . *ahem* certain points.) DD and Snape are my two favorite characters, and so the points where we see how those two deal with each other are of particular interest to me.

I have more thoughts on what you've said, but I just typed a paragraph and managed to contradict myself twice, so I think I need to put more thought into it before I write it out.

Jun 2, 2008, 3:55pm

We agree on the BEST points. And don't encourage my rambling! Otherwise I'll start writing a dissertation on what liking Snape Vs. Sirius means about your personality, or why DD in some ways is more evil than Voldemort, or the relationship between Voldemort and Snape being one of the most complicated, or....

Jun 2, 2008, 4:26pm

Actually, now I'm hoping that several of those points will come up in later discussions! I'm really curious about the Snape vs. Sirius thing . . . maybe you should start a thread on it! Then again, there could be war over that particular topic. . . ;-)

Editado: Jun 2, 2008, 9:59pm

You people fascinate me. I love that there are other people as geeky as I am about HP.

As to the pensieve, I like bib's notion that it has both "cut" and "copy" functions, so to speak. In OotP, Snape was definitely using it to block Harry from seeing stuff, but does that mean you necessarily have to forget what's been put in there? We need to know, Jo!

Edited because I was getting ahead of myself.

Jun 2, 2008, 10:04pm

About the Levicorpus spell, I think Snape would have told all his Slytherin buddies how to do the spell, and what was there to stop a Gryffindor from finding out what the spell was from one of Snape friends by forcing him or her to tell. James or Sirius could have spied it while looking over Snape's shoulder for that matter.

Something else that I just realized, Snape had this spell used on him in his memory right after sitting for his defense against the dark arts O.W.L. But the sell was written down in a potions textbook that Harry had to buy specifically for his N.E.W.T. level potions class. Did the potions master in Snape's time use the more advanced book? Or did Snape transfer all his notes from an older potion manual to his new one? So many questions!

Jun 2, 2008, 11:11pm

12- My goodness, I was just thinking about how different personality types seem to gravitate towards either Snape or Sirius. Freaky. ;)

Jun 2, 2008, 11:18pm

I think they're both pansies.

Jun 2, 2008, 11:25pm

I love them both. What does that make me?

Jun 2, 2008, 11:28pm

Confused. I am sorry for you. ;)

Jun 2, 2008, 11:31pm

#18 polygamous schizophrenic cosmopolitan?


Jun 2, 2008, 11:46pm

I don't understand why it's mutually exclusive....if loving them both is wrong, I don't want to be right.

Jun 2, 2008, 11:49pm

Not mutually exclusive at all, LG. Of course, they did hate each other, but that has not prevented to writing of some very bad slash fanfic, I'm sure. . . .

You know I'm just giving you a hard time, right? :-)

Jun 2, 2008, 11:54pm

There's nothing wrong with loving both Snape and Sirius. They are both good characters. You know we aren't serious, right?
*giggles* Sirius.

Jun 3, 2008, 8:18am

#10: Sorry ellevee! "The Scottish Book" is what Jo (and subsequently Leaky and Mugglenet) are calling the encyclopedia. An allusion to "The Scottish Play" and the superstitions that surround it, mostly due to the legal troubles the book has led to.

#15: I know that Snape wouldn't be able to resist showing off to his Slytherin buddies, I guess I was just trying to point out that he should have though. I hadn't thought about James and Sirius reading it over his shoulder, although from the description of the way it's "crammed in a corner" I would think they'd have had to steal the book to get a good look at it really. Good point about the books and the timing of the spell, however, the book itself is "almost 50 years old" and I believe was Eileen's in school, it's possible she gave it to Snape when he got into Hogwarts or for a birthday present or something before 5th year.

Editado: Jun 3, 2008, 8:23am

I'm going to go ahead and post my Chapter 18 thoughts now, I'm so happy some good discussion came from the first two chapters, because my notes for the last 3 are pretty pitiful!

1. I just want to point out that they study antidotes in GoF, remember Snape threatens to poison someone before Christmas. At one point Harry needs a bezoar to complete his antidote, so SS/PS is not the only time they've been mentioned or used, though that's the way it sounds in this chapter. (Sorry I can't give page numbers, I don't have access to my GoF book, I noticed when I was listening to GoF in the car.)

2. Kinda puts Harry's bad birthdays into perspective, doesn't it?

Edited because I always seem to add apostrophes where they are not needed. '

Jun 3, 2008, 8:50am

I think when memories are removed, you don't remember them at all. Otherwise why would Snape remove them for Occ. If you put them in the Penseive and enter them, you are creating a whole new memory of the same thing. That is why Dumbledore knows what his memories are. Of course then there is Slughorn's memory. I will go with the altering creates a copy theory above.

I am not happy about how it says Harry would see Crabbe or Goyle hanging around corridors by themselves when there was no sign of Draco. Why doesn't Harry figure out it is always the same corridor and that it is the corridor for the Room of Requirement!

Editado: Jun 3, 2008, 9:26am

I'm sticking with the "cut" and "copy" features theory. If the memory was completely gone, wouldn't Slughorn notice it was gone? You might say if you lost the memory, you wouldn't know it was there in the first place, so you wouldn't notice it was gone. But did removing that memory, remove the memory of being asked for it? Or of making the copy? Also, Slughorn seems to not only remember what actually happened, but remembers the revised version he gave to DD. Under the theory that the memory in the bottle is the only memory of that sort, then Slughorn shouldn't remember his revised version, should he? Am I talking in circles? This is my favorite discussion we've had yet I think!

#26 I agree with your point about Crabbe and Goyle. Harry's kind of a moron about that stuff sometimes though. I think he sometimes forgets about magic. Does that make sense?

Jun 3, 2008, 10:03am

I like the theory in post #8, by Ellevee's friend, that some sort of "marker" is left -- a memory of a memory. If the memory that goes in the Pensieve takes all of the emotion associated with it, that would explain Snape' use of the Pensieve. The memories accessed during the Occlumency lessons all seemed to be memories with strong feelings attached -- by putting those memories (literally) out of his head during the lessons, Snape would still know what they were, but would not have to worry about Harry stumbling across them.

My theory on Slughorn is that Dumbledore asked him for the memory -- pressed him, but politely, to give it to him. Slughorn eventually agreed, but gave him the "altered" version. He knew that, as soon as DD "viewed" the memory, he would realize that it had been changed, but was hoping that he could avoid DD thereafter. What Slughorn was giving DD was the memory of what he wished had happened. I think he remembered the original event, and he remembered giving DD an altered memory of the event.

Jun 3, 2008, 10:14am

The problem, tho, is that when Slughorn finally submits the memory again to Harry, it is complete. If the process actually removes the memory or only leaves a marker, how could he re-record the whole encounter?

Another thing that doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. Yet it works while you are reading it, so who really cares?

Jun 3, 2008, 10:22am

#28: When Harry asks Slughorn about the Horcruxes and Slughorn asks Harry if DD had shown him the memory he says "Then you should know I don't know anything, ANYTHING about Horcruxes." (or sim.) I suppose that could mean that he knows that he altered the memory to say he doesn't know about Horcruxes, but it could also mean that he remembers exactly what he showed DD. I'll be interested to read "After the Burial" next week to see what more is said, if anything.

#29: Very true lg. There are many, and I don't really care all that much about them, I still love the books and recognize the part they all play in furthering the plot. I just have fun speculating!

Jun 3, 2008, 11:10am

I think it makes more sense to assume that collecting a memory just makes a copy of it. Snape could have done another spell to remove his memory knowing that he could retrieve it from the pensieve later. I'm not sure why he would want to retrieve that particular memory though.

Jun 3, 2008, 11:21am

Interesting, but that kind of ties into the intent theory, doesn't it? There's one way of doing it where it removes the memory ("cut") and one way of doing it where it copies ("copy") the memory. It could be that copying (or cutting) is the easier way to go and therefore the way it is usually done. That makes a lot of sense jjwilson!

Jun 3, 2008, 11:28am

But my problem with that is that if the pensieve is used to protect people's memories, if there's a copy can't others still read the copy? Doesn't that defeat the purpose? I may be missing something.

And I don't mind people loving Sirius and Snape, I just don't get it. Because I love Snape. I'm one of THOSE.

#24 Thanks! I suspected it might be that, but I wanted to check. I'm always tragically behind on HP news.

Jun 3, 2008, 11:33am

I have been busy so I haven't been following the reread fully but I see it has devolved into one of the standard sirius/snape discussions. I am shocked to see there are no Lupin fans out there. Love the cardigans!

LG just has a big heart she has room for them and half the cast of battlestar galactica she is to be praised for her broadmindedness. ;)

I am actually interested in the pensieve conversation. I may have to reread a bit and come back.

Jun 3, 2008, 11:37am

I love them both because they are well realized characters. It's a book. If I met either one IRL, they would each probably bug me, but for different reasons.

I mean does anyone seriously think that having a beer with Snape, assuming you could get him to do it at all, would really be any fun? And Sirius would be really mopy. He'd be that friend who comes along to parties but never has a good time, and who calls you in the middle of the night drunk, complaining about "the man" or some woman who got tired of his crap and left him.

Not that I have any friends like that! ;-)

Jun 3, 2008, 11:38am

I'm perfectly happy to continue the Pensieve discussion, but I thought I'd add my Chapter 19 notes, so that I can finish by the time I leave work!

1. Arthur says it was "a lucky day for the Weasleys" when Ron sat with Harry on the train, but it's quite possible that none of them would have been put in jeopardy in the first place if he and Harry weren't friends:
a. While Lucius may have still gotten Ginny the diary (to halt Mr. Weasley's Muggle Protection Act), she might not have written as much about Harry nor would she have made such good Harry-bait to the Chamber.
b. The Weasley's may or may not have joined the Order. They weren't in the first Order. They may not have felt as compelled to take action without being so close to Harry. If they hadn't joined the Order, Mr. Weasley would never have been attacked.
c. Ron likely wouldn't have eaten the cakes in the first place (Harry probably wouldn't have the Marauder's Map!) and never would have been in Slughorn's office to drink the poisoned mead.

Am I over thinking it. Probably, but it struck me while reading, so I share it with you.

2. So Hagrid says something about if DD knew who had done the necklace and the poison he would do something about it. DD might not 100% know, but he 99.9% knows who it is and does nothing. Two students could have died! Is this more of his greater good crap? Exactly what greater good comes out of allowing Malfoy to clumsily attempt to murder him and anyone else who might be unlucky enough to get in the way?

3. On a happier note, I love this Quiddich match! I wish Luna always commentated!

4. I suppose they won't have the elf fight in the movie, too bad I would have like to have seen it. But then I got to thinking...you know how they keep giving Dobby's stuff to Neville...you know what I'm picturing!

Jun 3, 2008, 11:41am

I love the Luna commentary. I hope it's in the movie.

I hate the elves, except for maybe in DH, so they can leave them well out as far as I am concerned.

Jun 3, 2008, 11:41am

#34 OK, I need to tell you. I picked TWO characters in DH I hoped would live, but would have settled for one. They both died. HORRIBLY. Within pages of each other. One was Snape. The other was Lupin. Still cranky about it.

I like making people pick because I think it's interesting.

#35 LG, Sirius is just like a lot of guys I went to high school with. They're handsome and smart and arrogant, and have a crappy family life you know very little about. I feel bad for them, but I still don't want to deal with them. Snape would be fun if you got him started on a good topic.

Imagine a drunk Snape waving a beer around and bellowing about first-year dunderheads.

And you're right - Sirius is totally a drunk dialler!

Jun 3, 2008, 11:45am

#38 In my younger years, I would have been one of those women who dumped him. Would have had a lot of fun first, but then, the misery. Oy. I'm so glad I'm happily married now.

It would be very hard to get Snape to even go out to a bar, let alone get him drunk. He is a control freak--it's what allows him to succeed as a double agent. DD knew he could trust him because he'd never do what you're suggesting.

Jun 3, 2008, 11:51am

Aren't DD's actions against Malfoy constrained by Snape's unbreakable vow? If DD had Malfoy arrested wouldn't Snape be compelled to do something about that? The vow was,

Will you, Severus, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord's wishes?

That's pretty ambiguous. What exactly does watch over mean? Do we know that DD knows about the vow (I haven't read Deathly Hallows yet)? Also, if DD does something to stop Draco, would that tip off V that Snape told DD?

Jun 3, 2008, 11:51am

#33 That's why I'm expounding the Intent Theory. What jjwilson brought up and I think I agree with to some extent is perhaps the easiest thing to do it make a copy (I think maybe it's easier to remove it altogether actually) but there's another step or piece of the spell you can do that will remove the memory (or make a copy, whichever one is more difficult). I don't know if that made any sense.

I just reread your post ellevee and I'm going to leave what I wrote but also say, I don't think the Pensieve's main function is to protect memories, that's just how Snape uses it in OotP. I think the main purpose of the Pensieve is to make it easier to sift through memories. DD uses it this way in GoF looking through his memories to attempt to find the connection between past events and present events. Hmmm....I'm going to have to think about that in relation to my theory.

#34 I prefer Lupin. Mostly because of the cardigans.

#35 Very true. I think Sirius could be fun depending on his mood. He wasn't always sullen. I had a friend like that in college. Lots of 2 a.m. calls.

Jun 3, 2008, 12:04pm

What I meant was that the memory removal would be a different spell. We already know that memories can be altered by the Ministry altering the memories of Muggles who have seen things they shouldn't and Lockhart.

Jun 3, 2008, 12:10pm

35: LG ROTFL! Great job picking up on both characters.

37: LG I agree about the elves. Dobby bugged me until he died, then I ended up crying like a baby. Never liked the Crouchs' elf; glad she was left out of the movies. Kreacher was better in DH. Hated SPEW. The only thing it was good for was to get Hermione to kiss Ron in DH :)

Jun 3, 2008, 12:16pm

Oh, LG, I know. Snape's controlling nature is what kept him alive all those years. He'd NEVER get drunk.

But a girl can dream.

Lupin's second only to Snape.

#41 I wonder why Snape used it in that way. He could have just bottled them. Of course, it is such a good plot device.

#43 I did the same thing with Dobby! Never liked him, bawled like a child when he died. Kreacher grew on me, because of the cooking.

Jun 3, 2008, 12:18pm

#40: DH will clear a lot of this up for you I think. I don't really like spoiling, but since these threads are known to be spoilerific, I know you are reading at your own risk, so I will say, yes, DD knows about the Vow. IMO, DD doing something about it wouldn't effect Snape anyway.

#42: Sorry, I knew what you meant but disagreed and added my own spin. Yes, obliviate will permanently remove a memory, but Snape needed to keep the memories, he just needed them temporarily removed to keep them from Harry. IMO, he needed those memories to maintain his sense of purpose. Without them, that would be lost.

Jun 3, 2008, 12:21pm

#44 re #41: That's actually the point I was making that started this whole discussion to begin with! See #4.5

Jun 3, 2008, 12:23pm

#46 Ah, I missed that one! And here I thought I was being all original. I must have absorbed it by osmosis, haha.

Rereading this thread makes me very nervous about the movie...

Jun 3, 2008, 1:08pm

Okay, the flood of posts seems to have stopped for the moment, so I'll finish out my notes, I think you'll all be very impressed with Chapter 20: ;)

1. An allusion to DD knowing the Hog's Head barmen.

2. I remember being amazed at just how long the D.A.D.A. curse had been in place, nearly 40 years! Also nice to know that it is turly a curse.

See, very in depth and impressive, aren't they?

Jun 3, 2008, 2:05pm

#34, #41 -- Cardigans? The mind boggles. (I like book-Lupin, can hardly stand to look at movie-Lupin, but like ellevee, Snape always has first place in my heart.)

#35 -- I made some comment like that months ago, at least regarding Snape. If I met him in real life, he would absolutely despise me. Three well-chosen cutting comments and I would be weeping in Myrtle's bathroom. That's why I prefer my fantasy world. ;-)

#39 -- Ah, but I don't drink. Yet another reason why we are perfect for each other. (In aforementioned fantasy world.) Hmmm . . . do I not drink because I am a control freak? Possibly. But I would make a lousy double agent.

Jun 3, 2008, 4:08pm

I think the crush I had on book Lupin helped my David Thewlis crush along....and the cardigans....

Jun 3, 2008, 8:51pm

Ah there are so many reasons bib and I are kindred spirits!

Jun 3, 2008, 8:58pm

One opportunity that I hope the movie doesn't miss is Slughorn's altered memory -- I feel like they could do some very interesting stuff with the memories, as far as filming goes.

Jun 4, 2008, 8:55am

I feel the same way Mar!

Jun 4, 2008, 12:28pm

52 fd yes I hope so too!

Jun 4, 2008, 12:37pm

Oh, Foggi, the amount of therapy I'd need after meeting Snape would be mind-boggling - but worth every tear-soaked moment!

#50 My David Thewlis crush led me to buy his book. I haven't finish it yet, because I just kept thinking, "Lupin wouldn't write such dirty things!"

Jun 4, 2008, 1:01pm


I have David Thewlis book as well. I thought it was well done but I stopped reading it because I think the British sense of humor is far more self-depricating than is comfortable for me. I just wasn't ready to watch Hector do more stupid self destructive things.

Hmm but I didn't picture Lupin as the author. Yes there was lots of that self consciously gritty art scene swearing and bohemian behavior.

Jun 4, 2008, 1:06pm

Because none of my friends know who David Thewlis is, but most of them know who Lupin is, the two sort of merged to save me the effort of constantly explaining.

I will finish it at some point, because I was enjoying it. Plus I've watched Naked since then, which shatters the Lupin connection entirely.

Editado: Jun 4, 2008, 1:15pm

Oh dear. I have not seen it ellevee. But did you see Seven Years in Tibet? Though he was sweet in that.

It is funny I loved Lupin in the book and Thewlis did not look like I imagined but I like Thewlis as an actor so much that it is fine.

On a similar note though i have avoided seeing Julian Sands in any of the B movies he's done because I want to see him as George Emerson in Room with a View and I also avoided watching Ben Kingsley play a vicious killer.

Jun 4, 2008, 1:23pm

When I think of Thewlis, I immediately think of the character he played in Naked. That movie was seriously disturbing. I can't imagine him writing anything worse than that.

I had a hard time imagining him doing Lupin before I saw it. He does a creditable job, but Lupin is way different in my mind.

Jun 4, 2008, 1:27pm

He actually looked a lot like my internal picture of Lupin, which scares me a bit.

Naked is simultaneously one of my favorite movies, and one of those films I can't stand watching.

His book isn't worse than Naked, but it is unexpectedly graphic. Lupin would never write naked stories.... ;-)

Jun 4, 2008, 1:32pm

Or what about his turn in The Big Lewbowski? (One of my all-time favourite movies in the history of the universe.) Dude is hilarious in it. And creepy.

Oh, I get it now, he's still a werewolf so he has to have an undercurrent of creepy, even though he is kind.

Jun 4, 2008, 1:43pm

#61 Am I to take it that in this case "Dude" referred to Thewlis and not Lebowski? Slightly confusing use of the term in this case!

I had no idea that Thewlis had written a book and now I will of course have to get it. I have not seen Naked, what is it about?

I also love his wife/S.O. (I've seen her called different things in different places).

Jun 4, 2008, 1:44pm

#62 Ha! Sorry, that WAS ambiguous, given the movie! I did mean Thewlis, although Jeff Bridges is a personal hero of mine.

Who's Thewlis married to?

Editado: Jun 4, 2008, 1:58pm

Naked It's horribly bleak and very graphic. The most unsympathetic character I can remember seeing on screen.

ETA: btw, it's brilliant and a masterpiece, just horribly difficult to watch. Major misogyny. And misanthropy, for that matter.

Jun 4, 2008, 2:19pm

#63 Anna Friel. She plays chuck on Pushing Daisies.

#64 Sounds like the kind of thing I could enjoy if I'm in the right mood.

Holly and her hubby watched The Big Lebowski just before she gave birth and started calling my nephew the Dude. There's been talk about dressing him in bathrobe next Halloween and having him carry a sippy cup of iced formula (in lieu of a White Russian of course!)

Jun 4, 2008, 3:47pm

#65 Baby Dude! I love it. Maybe he needs a baby bowling bag, too.

As for Naked, it's worth seeing, but I've only seen it once. It's almost the same vibe as Trainspotting, but even more bleak, as there is no attempt to make the protagonist seem at all hip. And Thewlis is not Ewan MacGregor if you know what I mean. Might be the single greatest achievement in film acting ever, however. And I'm not kidding.

Jun 13, 2008, 4:25am

I agree that it would seem that there is a different or altered spell to differentiate between "copying" and "cuting" memories.

Maybe Snape used the pensieve because he didn't know about the bottles.

and the levicorpus time-line is probably just more of her math issues.

Jun 18, 2008, 6:29am

Lupin was not at all as i pictured him...

Jun 19, 2008, 12:10am

Me either. I pictured him.... a little more.... handsome.

Jun 19, 2008, 1:36pm

Ah..can we get back to the book now?

Jun 22, 2008, 7:48pm

Sure! Here are my comments.

Chapter 16

1) Fred and George are in rare form in this chapter -- I guess since they're not at school any more, we get all of their witty remarks at once during holidays.

2) Lupin is so rational -- which is, I think, one of the reasons he doesn't connect with Harry as well as Sirius did.

3) Fleur is always going to have mother-in-law issues. I know Molly gets reconciled to the idea later, but Fleur and Molly are just so different, they will always clash.

4) Scrimgeour mentioning Umbridge was certainly a tactical error.

5) All in all, I feel that Harry does a very good job of handling Scrimgeour in this encounter. Very mature.

Chapter 17

1) Are all of the students using McGonagall's fireplace, or just the students in her house? Harry didn't specify which grate, which makes me think that all of them must be coming out of her fireplace. I wonder how the muggle-borns are getting back to Hogwarts (especially those without fireplaces)?

2) Dumbledore is in rare form with the witty remarks in this chapter.

Chapter 18

1) Imagine Snape's reaction if Harry had tried the bezoar trick in one of his classes!

2) Ron on love potion makes me laugh out loud every time.

Chapter 19

1) Luna's commentary is brilliant!

2) Even madam Pomfrey gets a witty moment: "I'm afraid that (killing Maclaggen) would come under the heading of 'overexertion.' "

Chapter 20

1) I thought Gulping Plimpies were a kind of fish. Why would you want to ward them off?

2) Hermione's enabling behavior with Harry and Ron's homework (doing the work for them) continues to bother me.

3) Do all house elves have to have cutesy names?

4) "Hufflepuff's Cup" makes a good tongue-twister. Try saying it five times fast.

5) The scene with Voldy and DD is vivid, gripping. Good writing there.

Jun 22, 2008, 8:49pm

16:5 Yes, Lucky for Scimgeour he didn't have to face Harry in the last book: Harry Potter and the Teenage Angst. Now why don't the touchstones work on that?

20:4 Maybe that is why they never win, the Tongue-Twister curse.

Jun 23, 2008, 8:33am

17.1: I had almost the exact same question and I was kinda disappointed no one addressed it!

20:3 Would you call "Kreacher" cutesy? I wouldn't!

Jun 23, 2008, 9:11am

#73 -- It is, kinda! Spelled with a "K" and all.