Goblet of Fire chapters 29-32 discussion

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Goblet of Fire chapters 29-32 discussion

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1foggidawn
Fev 25, 2008, 10:05 am

Good morning! We're close to the finish now -- just five more chapters in Goblet of Fire for next week, and then on to Order of the Phoenix! This week's chapters are . . .

  • 29: The Dream
  • 30: The Pensieve
  • 31: The Third Task
  • 32: Flesh, Blood, and Bone

  • Let's have some discussion!

    2usafspaz
    Fev 25, 2008, 10:11 am

    Question for every1, how did the spectators not notice moody blasting champions through the hedge walls (if they could see him), i mean weren't there like 7 or 8 judges patrolling around the wall and then all the spectators looking at it, some one had to have noticed something!!

    3foggidawn
    Fev 25, 2008, 10:40 am

    I wondered the same thing, spaz! Maybe he was wearing an invisibility cloak -- but then, wouldn't people have noticed that he wasn't there?

    4littlegeek
    Fev 25, 2008, 11:28 am

    I agree with the above comment re: Moody.

    The other thing that struck me about the third task was just how much more interesting it was than in the movie. I love the sphinx. And the discussion between Harry & Cedric about who should grab the cup. It's just heartbreaking.

    And, really, I am rarely scared by movies or books, but that graveyard scene is extremely scary! I was crapping my pants the first time I read it!

    5foggidawn
    Editado: Fev 25, 2008, 11:33 am

    I'm going to go ahead and add my other thoughts.

    Chapter 29 -- Sirius' note sounds very fatherly and guardian-like. I always thought he sort of regressed in the fifth book. Guess that will be a topic for conversation when we get there!

    I can't believe Trelawney doesn't have students dropping off to sleep in every lesson -- descriptions of her classroom always sound so cozy. I mean, I wouldn't want to live there, but it sounds like the sort of place where you could curl up with a blanket and a good book on a lazy afternoon.

    Harry's point-of-view in the dream is a little weird. I mean, if the connection is with Voldy, shouldn't he have dreamed he was in Voldy's chair, looking at the owl arriving, rather than arriving with/on the owl?

    The other thing that caught my attention in this chapter is that Dumbledore's office password was guessable. To me, this says a lot about DD's character: safety measures don't mean a lot to him. We see this again at the beginning of the sixth book.

    ETA: Also, Moody is able to see through the door of DD's office. Makes me wonder how many other things he can see through. Stone walls? What about metal? He's already shown that he can see through cloth -- and invisibility cloaks. That eye is a pretty powerful magical object.

    Phew! I had a lot to say about that chapter. I'll be back later with my thoughts on the rest.

    6littlegeek
    Fev 25, 2008, 12:58 pm

    What is JKR trying to say about nobility? Every time Harry does the noble thing (in the second task, or insisting on sharing the cup with Cedric) it blows up in his face, or at the very least complicates things. There are other examples from other books as well (i.e., insisting on rescuing Sirius from the Dept of Mysteries). This quality is one that is pretty unique to Harry, yet it is a double-edged sword. Why?

    I think it's true and compelling, I'm just not sure why it is such a major theme of the whole series. Is it a Christian thing? Is she trying to encourage people to be noble or not? Is she saying only very special people can be expected to be noble?

    7compskibook
    Fev 25, 2008, 4:59 pm

    4: LG - I agree. Task three in the book actually required knowledge and skill. In the movie it was just running fast and luck. Watch out that the big bush doesn't eat you!

    8littlegeek
    Fev 25, 2008, 5:16 pm

    I loved that Sirius was right there with Harry in Dumbledore's office when he was telling the story.

    Curse you, JKR! You spare your characters (and readers) nothing!

    9foggidawn
    Fev 25, 2008, 7:11 pm

    #6 -- Interesting. I had never looked at it that way. On at least the most superficial level, I would say that the point she makes is that doing the right thing is not always easy, or even appreciated by others. It's odd that only Harry displays this trait, though. Now I'm wracking my brain for instances of nobility in other characters. You're right, it's hard to come up with any. Not sure what this says about the moral message of the HP series -- or if it necessarily says anything beyond what I've already stated. After all, the series is about Harry -- other characters don't have as many opportunities to display their (possibly foolhardy) nobility. Ron did sacrifice himself in the chess game in the first book. I'm sure there are other examples if we took the time to look for them. But with the spotlight firmly fixed on Harry, we see his actions more clearly than any other character's.

    10littlegeek
    Fev 25, 2008, 7:19 pm

    I guess I'm talking about that thing that makes other characters (particularly Ron, but Hermione, too) say things like, "quit playing the hero, Harry, get over yourself."

    Ron does the thing with chess because he's the chess champion. Harry does stuff when he's not necessarily the "best" one for the job, he just sees that it needs doing. (like the second task.)

    I guess you could say Cedric was noble, too, in playing fair with Harry throughout the tournament. But look where that got him. At the same time, he isn't stupid enough to think Dumbledore would let a kid die because someone got caught by grindylows. Harry sometimes thinks he's the only one who can fix stuff, even when it's not true. Is that really being noble or heroic, or is it egotistical?

    Obviously, I'm still working my way through this one....*scratches head*

    11foggidawn
    Fev 25, 2008, 7:25 pm

    #10 -- I think there's a fine line between "noble" and "egotistical." Harry does seem to always think he's the answer to whatever the problem might be. Other characters' attempts at nobility are, as you say, tempered by the circumstances. Either that, or they're acting in a noble way for reasons of their own (yes, thinking of Snape here) -- and then you can ask if that counts as nobility, if the motivation for the noble act is not exactly laudable.

    Obviously, I'm right there with you.... *puzzled look*

    12foggidawn
    Fev 25, 2008, 10:19 pm

    Okay, I'm back home now, and ready to add the rest of my thoughts that I jotted down while reading this week's chapters.

    30: Remember that thread where we all talked about what cool magical item we'd like to have? Did I say that I'd like a pensieve? Well, I would!

    Ludo Bagman really is an idiot -- but I'm more disturbed about the member of the jury standing up to congratulate him on his recent good play. Obviously not an objective jury.

    LG was talking about emotional scenes earlier, but the courtroom scene with Crouch Jr. is the one that always gets me (at least in this book). "I have no son." Chilling.

    I thought the end of this chapter was interesting in what Dumbledore revealed about Neville -- and what he didn't reveal about Snape. I was getting serious mental echoes of parts of the seventh book when Harry asked why DD trusted Snape.

    31: There's some foreshadowing going on at the beginning of the chapter, about Neville being the other possible child of the prophecy.

    I agree that the maze was cooler in the book than the movie. Of course, I hate the movie for this book more than all of the others combined, so that's probably not saying much. What on earth was that upside-down golden mist spell? That was just weird.

    I also love the sphinx. I appreciated that the riddle (unlike the potion puzzle in the first book) was solvable.

    32 -- The fact that Voldy's dad's name was Tom (not Thomas) struck me as odd in this reading. Of course, "Thomas Marvolo Riddle" would not have made as nice an acronym.

    The flesh, blood, bone spell is different than any other spell in the series, in format. Wonder if Voldy made it up -- and if so, how he knew it would work.

    I also found myself wondering how much the "new" Voldy looked like his former self. The description makes it sound like he doesn't look very human.

    13littlegeek
    Fev 25, 2008, 11:08 pm

    I also noticed how in the book, you don't know whether Barty Jr. is really guilty or not until the end. During the pensieve scene, he's totally denying everything. The movie just blew the whole thing by revealing him right from the first scene.

    Plus, let me reiterate--no Sirius (well, one stupid fire scene). It's just wrong.

    The movie really does suck.

    14foggidawn
    Fev 25, 2008, 11:11 pm

    #13 -- Yes, and I think one of the reasons the courtroom scene packs such an emotional punch is that you don't know that Jr. was guilty as sin and that everything he was saying was a lie.

    That scene is also your first glance at Bellatrix's scary, scary devotion to Voldemort. Let me just say, she was messed up.

    15littlegeek
    Fev 25, 2008, 11:23 pm

    Whatever happened to her husband? They only refer to "the Lestranges" but I don't remember him being around later.

    16ellevee
    Editado: Fev 25, 2008, 11:38 pm

    #12 You hate this movie the most? I think it might be my favorite, except for the distinct Snape-lacking factor. But that may be because David Tennant kicks ass as Barty Crouch, Jr.

    Another movie-book note: I thought the scene where Harry returns from the graveyard with Cedric's body was beautifully done on both mediums, and made me cry each time.

    Sirius does regress in the fifth book, but then again in this one he's running around being a wild man, which might be soothing his 'bad boy' inclinations.

    I know one of these comments is for later chapters, and I apologize.

    17littlegeek
    Fev 25, 2008, 11:44 pm

    SPOILERS FOR OOTP - Yes, I think Sirius gets all weird in OotP because he's basically locked up again. No dementors, but he's still stuck in one place, and can't get involved in the Order like he wants to.

    And he must have many regrets and guilt that he can do nothing to redeem. Very tragic figure.

    18foggidawn
    Fev 26, 2008, 12:38 am

    #16 -- Alas, we never see enough of Snape. Don't these people understand that there's really only one reason that I go to see these things, and it isn't Daniel Radcliffe? ;-)

    19ellevee
    Fev 26, 2008, 12:49 am

    #18 They cut my two favorite characters majorly from each movie (Snape and Lupin). It's cruel and sadistic.

    BTW, does anyone know/have any theories on where Lupin exactly IS during this book?

    20Caspettee
    Editado: Fev 27, 2008, 7:10 am

    I suspect Sirius might be a little mad or to clarify Sirius seems to be going through a major identity crisis which is understandable. He went from being a hero and the "Cool kid" to being a villain and hated. He spent most of his life in Azkaban which from accounts doesn't allow you to grow and mature and they made him relive his darkest moments over and over again. Then he got a taste of freedom and thought he could return to how everything was and be a father to harry but realises he cant when he is effectively imprisoned again at the OTP. I think come OoTP he is incredibly bitter and resentful of his friends freedom. I agree with a comment earlier that he is a very tragic character.

    21jjwilson61
    Fev 26, 2008, 11:40 am

    19> Just finding odd jobs I think. In OotP it is mentioned that Lupin hates Umbridge because she is responsible for some anti-parthuman legislation that makes it nearly impossible for him to find employment.

    22ellevee
    Fev 26, 2008, 11:42 am

    #21 I just always wondered if he was in contact with Sirius, and why he wasn't even writing Harry. It bothered me.

    23MEM82
    Editado: Fev 26, 2008, 3:25 pm

    (POMC)I never felt that Sirius was a good roll model for Harry anyway. Of course I realise that when he was made Godfather to Harry circumstances were better and no one ever really thinks their Godparent role will extend to more then Birthday and Christmas presents and showing up at graduations and stuff.

    24MEM82
    Fev 26, 2008, 3:29 pm

    (POMC) again comparing the book to the movie, I was also dissapointed in the maze, and didn't think Fleur was anything special. Barty Crouch Jr was great and true to the character in the book, I missed Winky and Dobby The graveyard scene and the rebirth of Voldy were great in both

    25foggidawn
    Fev 26, 2008, 4:07 pm

    #20 -- Welcome, Caspettee. What does PTP stand for (in your next-to-last sentence)?

    #22 -- I don't think that Lupin and Harry had a close enough relationship at that point that Lupin would feel comfortable contacting Harry. I think that if Sirius had not come back, Harry might have turned to Lupin with the sort of questions he had for Sirius, but Harry had Sirius to confide in, and so he basically didn't need Lupin. I think that Lupin would have kept in contact with Dumbledore, and would have gotten news of Harry through him. I do wonder if Lupin was in contact with Sirius. I'd imagine he would be. However, I also think that Lupin was dealing with a lot of guilt. He'd thought Sirius was guilty for all those years.

    26ellevee
    Fev 26, 2008, 4:41 pm

    #23 I don't think he was that great either. He's irresponsible and immature. Lupin would have been a better choice; he doesn't treat Harry like an idiot, but he doesn't treat him like James either. Then again, you're also right in that circumstances were different when he was named godfather. Nobody expected him to go all wonky in Azkaban and regress back to 15.

    #25 I guess I always wondered why Harry didn't ask him for help/suggestions/advice involving the tournament and everything going on. Lupin is wicked smart, after all.

    And I thought they were pretty close (he spent more time with Harry than Sirius did, after all). But Harry got hung up on the godfather thing.

    Lupin lives his whole life on a guilt trip. It's part of the reason I love him. I do hope/think he and Sirius were in contact during this book; they seem to be on excellent terms again by book 5.

    27littlegeek
    Fev 26, 2008, 7:28 pm

    Let's not forget Sirius was the bad boy, with hating his parents, running away and the motorcycle and everything. Lupin was too goody-goody to attract the admiration of teenagers.

    JKR is pretty wise in the ways of the young.

    28Caspettee
    Fev 27, 2008, 7:10 am

    #25 sorry all meant to say OoTP not PTP typo there. I have gone back an edited.

    Thanks for the welcome its nice to see such a vigorous discussion group.

    #27 I think you are right about JKR being very tuned into what young and older people respond to and carefully crafted Sirius and Lupin to that effect. I dont think it's an accident that Sirius appeals to younger people and Lupin to older generally.

    I really love Lupin he is such a kind and intelligent character with so much depth.

    29ellevee
    Fev 27, 2008, 12:49 pm

    Wait, am I older? I'm 22, and I preferred Lupin. Take that back, I LOVE Lupin, and really dislike Sirius. Lupin is so kind brilliant, and tortured. We really only get hints of how close to a breakdown he is in book 7. I want to hug Lupin

    Sirius... he's the embodiment of everything I dislike about Gryffindor: He's arrogant and brash and dives headfirst into a situation, and has a hero-complex. He has an unhealthy attitude towards Harry, and he can be cruel. On the other hand, he's very loyal, brave, and genuinely loved Harry.

    Which is why I love JKR. She makes such complex, real characters. I wish I could write like her.

    30foggidawn
    Editado: Fev 27, 2008, 4:19 pm

    Lupin is my favorite Marauder as well, but I definitely agree that Sirius' bad boy attitude and history would endear him to teens.

    #23/26 -- While I agree that James and Lily probably didn't put a lot of consideration into character when they chose Sirius as Harry's godfather and potential guardian, at that point I think Sirius probably did look like the better choice. Lupin's condition would make it difficult for him to look after a child -- even with the potion, he'd be out of commission for a few days every month, not to mention the fact that he would always have trouble getting work. And nobody could have even guessed that Sirius would be stuck in Azkaban for most of Harry's childhood.

    31Caspettee
    Fev 28, 2008, 7:33 am

    #29 rofl well if your old at 22 then I shudder to think of what I must be at 28 :) I agree with everything you said about both characters and being able to write like JKR would be nice too.

    #30 You are probably correct in why Lily and James picked Sirius over Lupin. Even in the modern wizard world the series is set in, it is clear there are a lot of prejudices still kicking around and fear. Life might have been a lot harder for Harry having a werewolf god parent to raise him.

    32littlegeek
    Fev 28, 2008, 6:49 pm

    DH SPOILER - Ironic, isn't it, that Harry later reams out Lupin for being a prat about becoming a father. Maybe the Potters knew what they were doing.

    33rissa
    Fev 28, 2008, 8:07 pm

    I think Harry also favored Sirius because he considered him to be closer to his father. even though Lupin was one of James' friends, Sirius was his best friend.

    34rissa
    Fev 28, 2008, 8:17 pm

    I think that the graveyard scene was a pivotal point in the series. It shows that from here on out, things are going to be more serious.

    35foggidawn
    Fev 28, 2008, 8:31 pm

    #34 -- I agree. Remember how traumatic it was, when JKR released the information that someone was actually going to die in GoF? Now, think of that in light of the bloodbath that is Deathly Hallows. . . .
    ;-)

    36compskibook
    Fev 28, 2008, 8:45 pm

    Thank goodness they didn't make Wormtail the godfather. It was stupid enough to make him the secret keeper.

    Why did Sirius convince them to make Pettigrew the secret keeper. I almost feel he was afraid. He said he would have died before betraying his friends (at least in the movie). Why not be the secret keeper, then. Sirius must have known Voldemort would have thought it was him. He would have been tortured anyway. He may have even eventually revealed that Peter was the secret keeper (that is if he wasn't already under Voldemort's control). Maybe it justs make a better story.

    37gpwts
    Fev 29, 2008, 7:09 pm

    Holy Cow, for weeks no discussion and now....

    I feel the urge to defend sirus a little bit. The guy may have been arragant and rash, but he was also loyal to his friends. It shows something somethign to be willing to ris, your life to become an Amigus, just so you can hang out with your part warewolf buddy.

    Also, (36) he was tryign to protect his friends. I know from expierence that its hard to know what the rigth way to go when a friends life is at stake. All you want to do is know that they're okay, which makes you antsy.

    And again, Sirius did show he would die for his friends, he tried to go back and kill petigrew, which for me is the same thing. He went hunting, trying desperatly to avenge his best friends life

    Losing James and Lily must have been very hard for him. DH Spoiler-In that letter it shows that he was close to Lily too****end of spoiler.
    So its hard for him to live with what he did

    thats all i can think right now

    38foggidawn
    Fev 29, 2008, 11:22 pm

    Isn't it great!? (The amount of discussion, I mean.)

    And here's your reminder -- so that we can finish strong, everybody remember to read those last five chapters this weekend, so we can start discussing them on Monday!

    39MEM82
    Mar 1, 2008, 10:42 am

    (POMC) making pettigrew secret keeper may have been a ploy to fool V and the other deatheaters since sirius and James and the rest thought P was thier freind, the scumbag!