Catholic Parishes of the 21st Century

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Catholic Parishes of the 21st Century

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Editado: Fev 10, 2017, 3:50am

eschator83, not sure whether this is the sort of topic and book which you want to see reviewed in this group, but I'll give it a shot anyway.

There is a review of CATHOLIC PARISHES OF THE 21ST CENTURY by Charles E. Zech, Mary L. Gautier, Mark M. Gray, Jonathon L. Wiggins and Thomas P. Gaunt, SJ, Oxford University Press (there doesn't appear to be an LT touchstone for it yet) here. Very interesting, and it seems to be very optimistic.

It brings to my mind a few books published long ago. Although it is very US-centric, it seems to me in some ways loosely to follow-on from them.

The Dilemma of Priestless Sundays by James Dallen (who was one of my professors when I did my MA)

What ever happened to Vatican II? by Michael M. Winter (I seem to recall also meeting him once in the dim and distant past)

The coming of the third church : an analysis of the present and future of the church by Walbert Buhlmann

Mar 1, 2017, 5:35pm

This is a great post with loads of topics for consideration, and I'm very grateful for the motivation it provides. I'm still wandering and biking around an island in SC for another couple days, so my reading and posting has dwindled, but I will soon be back with vastly renewed enthusiasm.

Editado: Mar 18, 2017, 2:39pm

I promptly succumbed to a very nasty cold, cough, aches, etc, went to urgent care yesterday. They assured me I'll live, and hopefully start to feel better soon, but I'm not getting much done effectively at the moment. Forgive me for going off-topic, but right now I'm trying to find a website for Catholic exegetics that I think you might have recommended to me in the last month or so. I remember looking unsuccessfully here at LT for a group for (would-be) exegetes. I was certain I put the site in my favorites, but cannot find it. Do you remember any of this? Or can you suggest a good site for Biblical commentaries and exegetics?
I'm trying to conceive a relationship between Jn 12:31, Jn 14:30, Jn 16: 8f, and a couple others.
Could you forgive one more off-topic? In my search for exegetics, I found an incomplete reference to the Ratzinger book on the Magesterium's relation with exegetics. When I tried to add it to my wishlist, it failed to enter (perhaps because there wasn't enough info). But I would be very grateful for anyone who could explain here how to add add books that I own but can't find in an LT directory.

Mar 18, 2017, 11:28am

>3 eschator83:

Sorry to hear you've been under the weather. I'm afraid I don't remember recommending an exegetical website. Maybe it was someone else, or maybe it is just my failing memory.

Forgive me for going off-topic

On LT, going off topic doesn't require any forgiveness - it is the norm!

Mar 18, 2017, 2:11pm

The failing memory is mine, sorry. The site I was looking was recently suggested to me on another board:
I admit I've only had time to go back to it a few times, but it seems very interesting, and when I'm struggling to understand a scripture passage, at the very least it comforts me that I made an effort to improve my understanding.
I've commented several times in other places that I've made a deck of cards for many of Jesus' teachings, from which I review a selection every day. During Lent and Advent I select the most difficult (for me), and try to find relevant commentaries or exegetics. I enjoy this, but it is incredibly time-consuming.
I'm very curious if you have used Haydock and would comment, and perhaps suggest other sources.

Mar 20, 2017, 7:59am

>3 eschator83: With recent books, using the ISBN to search generally works.

Mar 21, 2017, 5:52pm

>6 2wonderY:, thanks, I always try ISBN when I have trouble, but I've been given quite a few foreign books that won't likely be in the LOC, and in any event an ISBN # isn't shown. Two current frustrations I can't find, but hope to enter are:
Teach Me How to Pray, by Mary Dixon Thayer I have hardcover edition almost in collector condition (1984 edition), although the original copyright was 1926 as The Child on His Knees.
Pray Without Ceasing: The Jesus Prayer, by Brice Ingelsby, CP,
copyright 1965 by Marian Father, Stockbridge, MA
Can I somehow enter them directly?
I sorry to admit I'm impatient, and I have about 3k books I hope to catalogue.

Mar 22, 2017, 12:31am

>7 eschator83:

At the bottom of the "Add books" page there is a link called "Add manually". Just click on that and it opens a page where you can fill in all the details manually, with or without ISBN.

I have a lot of books, both Africana and railways, which don't have an ISBN and which don't appear in most of the catalogues, so I am very familiar with the "Add manually" page!

Mar 22, 2017, 9:29am

>8 John5918:, many thanks, blessings, and best wishes for a great day.
>1 John5918:, I've had so many reactions to, and so much interest in your comments, I don't know where to start:
I was disappointed to find that I don't seem to have any of the the books you mentioned--most interesting might have been 21st century parishes, but the Georgetown center for Applied Research (where the authors work) distracted me. More on that later, soon, somewhere--have you looked into that?
Because this group is established on interest in Apologetics, I'm most interested in encouraging discussion and reviews here on related books and topics, but your amazingly thought provoking post certainly deserves a detailed reply.
My first instinct about books claiming to predict the future is to beware of arrogance, deceit, and foolishness. Way in the back of my library may be a version of Buhlmann--The Coming Catholic Church (by Gibson) which I found appalling at first review, although the cover says he's a "commited" lay Catholic and reporter (for CNN??xx) It makes me long for an Index group here at LT where he could be criticized roundly.
On Vatican II, perhaps my closest version is MacEoin's What Happened at Rome? Another Index candidate--a gift from a friend. Thankfully I also have Sources of Renewal by St John Paul II (The Implementation of Vat II).
I'd be happy to discuss any of these, but hopefully in Book Discussion, or Book Talk, or some other related group. I keep imagining a new Group for recommendations for Catholic Libraries. But that's on my list after an exegetes wannabes group.
I pray you will keep motivating me.

Mar 22, 2017, 9:43am

Have you ever tried "recalculate author's name?" Apparently 7 or 8 of us have tried to fix Brice Ingelsby, CP in the listing for Pray Without Ceasing. Can any one please advise how to fix that?

Mar 22, 2017, 9:51am


Brice Ingelsby

Mar 22, 2017, 10:06am

>10 eschator83: So, I've combined the two works, added a canonical name and biographical information. Is this what you wanted?

I couldn't find an author picture.

Mar 22, 2017, 1:55pm

>12 2wonderY: I can't see what you've done, nor where you did it. My book catalogue still shows incorrectly that I have two editions of Pray Without Ceasing, both with the author's name miss-presented as Brice CP Inglesby, one owned by me alone and another also owned by 6 others. I only have one, and I hope to correct the author's name. I much appreciate your effort to help; could you please try again to fix the library or explain what you've done?

Editado: Mar 22, 2017, 2:11pm

The author's name shows the way it was added, from whatever source you used. You can edit your book to conform to how you want it to show. There is an edit link on the left column of the work page.

I see only one copy of the book in your collections.

Mar 22, 2017, 3:24pm

Can it be a system bug? When you enter the author's name, last and then first, as prompted, and then enter the Order abbreviation, you get the distorted display--(curiously, with first name first). Is there a best place to report this?
Thanks for your encouragement; I found the duplicate entry in my list and deleted it.

Mar 22, 2017, 3:30pm

It's not a bug.

Honorifics and titles should not be shown in the author name line. The system has difficulties with them.
The comma controls how the name displays.

Mar 28, 2017, 12:23am

On the topic of Catnolicism in the 21st century, might be worth having a look at the article I have posted at

Editado: Abr 4, 2017, 10:46am

Strange how the author says its foolish to try to summarize all that happened in the conference--just the same way the Durants started their Lessons of History. Why would they start that way?It seems an unlikely humility--both nearly persuaded me not to read further.
But I'm still struggling with both, and appreciate your suggestions and encouragement. As far as 21st Cent is concerned, I'm still distracted by CARA at Georgetown, and my deep-seated concern for most pollsters and the bias that seems so often to creep into their publications.

Abr 4, 2017, 11:37am

Obviously, I have trouble getting around my own biases. Ever since Mead's outrageous Coming of Age in Somoa, plus my only Sociology class, I've struggled to see the wisdom of efforts to force generalizations from small bits of questionable data, and the results seldom seem impartial and apolitical. Fortune tellers, psychics, and modern prophets seem equally dubious.
So the top line when I printed Robert's Review of 21st Century didn't exactly warm my heart: Social scientists connect the dots of the Catholic Future. Yeah, sure, I'll bet they do.
The vain quest for knowledge of the future stems from desire for power, and has always lured many. The few right guesses are consistently overwhelmed by reality.
Roberts says the book is taking "the ideological heat out of discussions" about how do we return to the Church we loved, and whom (or what) do we blame for its diminishment?
Roberts asks if the Church will confront the future by continuing "lurching from crisis to crisis."
He says the book contains "the basic score we all have to master before any improvising."
Roberts is arrogant.
Remember how the Durants told us in Lessons of History that in 2000 the Catholic Church would be the dominant force in US government (p26)?
Remember Jesus said: sufficient for a day is it's own evil (Mt 6:34).
I think we need to focus on the problem that the Church has soiled much of its practice and image of holiness, and its adoption of relativism in values is leading to internal and secular chaos.

Editado: Abr 4, 2017, 12:42pm

>19 eschator83: The vain quest for knowledge of the future stems from desire for power

While that may be true in some cases, I hardly think it is universal. There are many reasons for extrapolating future trends, one of which is to be ready for them if/when they happen. It's often useful to make projections.

I think we need to focus on the problem that the Church has soiled much of its practice and image of holiness, and its adoption of relativism in values is leading to internal and secular chaos

I agree wholeheartedly with the first half of that sentence, "that the Church has soiled much of its practice and image of holiness", but I don't agree that it has adopted "relativism" (that's a word bandied about by certain elements within the Church) nor that there is "internal and secular chaos".

Abr 4, 2017, 1:13pm

I'm very grateful you shared the review and your comments, and apologize for being grumpy. We're pretty far off the topic of apologetics, but perhaps it's useful to consider that the Church may need constructive criticism more than it needs apologists at the present time.
Certainly adopted was an overstatement--but relativism is a great danger and it is intruding.
Having gotten all this off my chest, I intend to be much more positive responding to your post on Africa #2 (link in 17 above).
Have a good day.

Abr 4, 2017, 1:30pm

>21 eschator83:

Thanks, eschator. I also try to be positive, and my apologies when I stray off course. I suppose I'm naturally quite positive, but I would also say that my daily experience of Church is very positive and lifegiving, and I honestly don't recognise a lot of the negativity which I hear about the Church, at least not from where I stand. That's not to say the Church is perfect, and on evils such as chilld abuse we still have a huge burden to deal with, but again I like to look at the progress which is being made.

Abr 7, 2017, 1:48pm

Generalizations about so many people and places seem almost always foolhardy to me. I know some claim that generalizations are a sign of brilliance and acuity, but others claim, with better logic it seems to me, that the great majority of generalities reflect bias, deceit, and/or vacuity.
Certainly I agree that scientific collection and analysis of important statistics is essential, and the formation and testing of hypotheses is often extremely beneficial.
I admit that universalism in almost every aspect I oppose and believe to be contrary to God's plan and His Will.
Have you read the Durant's Lessons of History? I'm almost finished reading it very carefully, even though I despise their early support of communism and lifelong socialism and universalism.
I hope the book can get some discussion in the group titled Lesson in History, and also hope you will come visit and advise.

Maio 28, 2017, 3:20am

No more audible gasps in church, please (NCR)

Since 1969, the number of Catholics in the archdiocese had declined by 69 percent; the number of priests had fallen by roughly two-thirds.

Editado: Maio 28, 2017, 4:37am

Incidentally, if we're looking at parishes in the 21st century, it might be worth taking a look at the two threads on mass, Mass is boring! and its successor Mass Report (A.K.A. Mass is Boring), which chronicle some of the experiences of LT members in ordinary parishes.

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