BR - tales and visions with lion

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BR - tales and visions with lion

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1dchaikin
Set 2, 2015, 11:10 pm



To zoom in, go here: http://www.raptureforums.com/clarencelarkin/images/10-daniel.gif

and yes, the is rapture forums .com. This is the Book of Daniel after all.

2dchaikin
Set 2, 2015, 11:11 pm

The Book of Daniel read - roughly September 2015

Here are links to all our previous threads.

from le Salon:
Prep: http://www.librarything.com/topic/127545
Genesis: http://www.librarything.com/topic/129966
Exodus: http://www.librarything.com/topic/131811
Leviticus: http://www.librarything.com/topic/133405
Numbers: http://www.librarything.com/topic/135184
Deuteronomy: www.librarything.com/topic/136380
Joshua: http://www.librarything.com/topic/137927
Judges (same thread as Joshua, starts on post #69): http://www.librarything.com/topic/137927#3452932
Ruth (same thread as Joshua, starts on post #142): http://www.librarything.com/topic/137927#3478722
1 & 2 Samuel: http://www.librarything.com/topic/139684
1 & 2 Kings: http://www.librarything.com/topic/142552
1 & 2 Chronicles: http://www.librarything.com/topic/146697
Ezra and Nehemiah: http://www.librarything.com/topic/154880
Tobit & Judith: http://www.librarything.com/topic/159435

from Club Read 2014:
Ester http://www.librarything.com/topic/168909
Job: https://www.librarything.com/topic/171374
Psalms: https://www.librarything.com/topic/179892
Proverbs: https://www.librarything.com/topic/183854

from Club Read 2015:
Ecclesiastes: https://www.librarything.com/topic/187190
Song of Songs: https://www.librarything.com/topic/188278
Book of Isaiah: https://www.librarything.com/topic/189974
Book of Jeremiah: https://www.librarything.com/topic/191443
Book of Lamentations (same thread as Jeremiah, post 50): https://www.librarything.com/topic/191443#5208549
Book of Ezekiel: https://www.librarything.com/topic/193044

3dchaikin
Set 2, 2015, 11:20 pm

The biggest thing I've noticed about Daniel so far is that this books seems to be deeply involved in a lot end of the world apocalyptic stuff. Apparently Daniel predicts the end of history, or time or something like that. It maybe comes as the end, and seems to be an odd unintended interpretation.

The second thing I've noticed is that every tale and vision in Daniel seems to have a history of stuff around it, but not just the millennialists and whatnot. Every tale has it's own wikipedia page. So, although there isn't much text here, only 12 chapters, there is a lot of baggage to carry along. Perhaps it should be read slowly.

This is intended as a group read, and even though I've kind of outpaced or outlasted the group and am mostly on my own now, and anyone is welcome to join in, or post.

4FlorenceArt
Set 3, 2015, 2:01 pm

I've given up even pretending I'm ever going to read this, but I will be reading your notes with pleasure, as always!

5dchaikin
Set 6, 2015, 10:43 am

Thanks Flo. Now, what to cover? I need some limits.

7dchaikin
Set 6, 2015, 11:10 am

Some general notes:

Chapters 1-6 - tales. These are considered older court folk adjusted to fit in the Daniel stories. They are about Daniel and his friends, not written by him. Chapter 1 is in Hebrew. Chapter 2 switches to Aramaic in v4. The book doesn't revert to Hebrew until chapter 8.

Chapter 1 - introduction
Chapter 2 - Daniel explains Nebuchadnezzar's dream of a statue with head of gold, chest of silver, torso of bronze & feet of Iron and clay.
Chapter 3 - Daniel's friends in the fiery furnace
Chapter 4 - Nebuchadnezzar's 2nd dream and madness
Chapter 5 - Belshazzar's feast (and the writing on the wall)
Chapter 6 - Daniel in the lion's den (switches to the Median empire)

Chapter 7-12 - four Apocalyptic visions. These are the only "complete" apocalyptic visions in the OT. There are several others from the same period, in different traditions. Some are in the NT, some in the Apocrypha. Chapter 7 is Aramaic. The other chapters are in Hebrew.

Chapter 7 - Beast from the sea and the son of man & ancient of days.
Chapter 8 - Ram & he-goat
Chapter 9 - Interpretation of Jeremiah's prophecy of 70 weeks (important for Millerites and Rapture and the like). This is the 2nd and only other chapter in the Median empire.
Chapters 10-12 - Angel's revelation of north and south kings. Moves to Persian empire and mentions Antiochus IV of the Seleucid Greek empire.

8dchaikin
Editado: Set 7, 2015, 2:10 pm

There is an overall chiastic structure of chapters 2-7, the Aramaic chapters.

A1 - chap 2 - Nabuchadnezzar's dream with four parts of statue
--B1 - chap 3 - Daniel's friends in furnace
----C1 - chap 4 - Daniel interprets Nebuchadnezzar's dream
----C2 - chap 5 - Daniel interprets handwriting on the wall
--B2 - chap 6 - Daniel in lion's den
A2 - chap 7 - vision of four animals

Historical notes:
Daniel 7-12 is a response to the state of Israel/Palestine under Antiochous IV Epiphanes in 167 BCE. It predicts his death incorrectly. He died in 164. So those chapters tend to dated to between 167 and 164. Antiochus IV was a Greek ruler of the Seleucid empire, one of the four empires that succeeded the empire of Alexander the Greek. He actively repressed Judaism and put a statue of Zeus in the temple, and led directly to the Maccabean revolt.

626 - 539 Babylonian empire
- 608 - 598 Jehoiakim King of Judah
- 597 - 1st exile
- 586 - 2nd exile
- 539 - return of exiles to Judah
615 - 549 Median Empire
550 - 330 1st Persian Empire (Achaemenid Empire)
334 - 323 Alexander the Great conquests
312 - 63 Seleudic empire
323 - 30 Ptolemaic empire (Egypt, ends with Cleopatra)
164 - 63 Hasmonean dynasty in Israel/Palestine (Maccabees)

Overall theme:
God saved Daniel the way he will save Israel from Antiochus.

9dchaikin
Set 6, 2015, 11:42 am

more general notes:
In the Jewish bible, Daniel is classified with writings (Ketuvim), along side Esther. In the Christian Bible it's grouped with the major prophets - Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel.

10FlorenceArt
Set 6, 2015, 3:57 pm

In the illustrated book La Bible racontée aux enfants (not sure the one from the touchstone is the same as the one I read), Daniel meets a lion in the desert and extracts a thorn from its paw. Later, the grateful lion declines to eat Daniel in the circus. That's how I remember it anyway. That, and Joseph's striped garment presented by his brothers as proof of his death, is the only thing I remember from this book.

I wonder how close this is to the actual text.

11dchaikin
Set 7, 2015, 2:13 pm

>10 FlorenceArt: if I ever make it to chapter 6, I'll figure out. Kids are back in school and suddenly we have a crazy busy schedule. I don't know how much time I will get to read this.

Last week I read chapters 1-3. I'll try to get some notes out.

12dchaikin
Set 7, 2015, 2:42 pm

Chapter 1 - an introduction

Basically we get a setting and meet the main characters. Daniel is part of a group of select Israelites exiled to Babylon (here called Shinar, meant to be a derogatory name.). The select are "Israelites of the royal family and of the nobility, young men without physical defect and handsome, versed in every branch of wisdom, endowed with knowledge and insight, and competent to serve in the king’s palace; they were to be taught the literature and language of the Chaldeans"

There is a episode where Daniel and his friends refuse to eat the kings food, presumably because they are keeping kosher. But, they excel and become advisers to the king. "In every matter of wisdom and understanding concerning which the king inquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters in his whole kingdom." - note the words magicians and enchanters are interpretations of carefully selected Hebrew words.

Daniel & friends: Hebrew name - meaning, Babylonian name - meaning.
Daniel - ???, Belteshazzar - somehow related to Bel*?
Hananiah - Yah(weh) is gracious, Shadrach - Command of Aku
Mishael - Who is like God?, Meshach - Who is as Aku** is?
Azariah - Yah(weh) has helped, Abednego - Servant of Nebu*** (or Nergal)

*Bel - apparently a generic name for god. Means something like master. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bel_%28mythology%29 )
**Aku - a Babylonian Moon God.
***Nebu - Nebuchadnezzar roughly translated to Nebo, Protect Your Servant. (In Hebrew it apparently sounds like: A Prophet Is A Preservative Jar. See http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Nebuchadnezzar.html#.Ve3ZMLdwLoF )

another side note: Daniel seems to be the hero Danel in the 13th-century BCE Ugaritic tablet. Well, at least they seem to have some literary relationship. Daniel isn't 800 years old.

13dchaikin
Set 7, 2015, 2:43 pm

Just want to repeat this one. Nebuchadnezzar in Hebrew apparently sounds like: A Prophet Is A Preservative Jar.

14AlisonY
Set 7, 2015, 5:16 pm

I'm way behind now Dan, but keep up the good work!

15FlorenceArt
Set 8, 2015, 2:10 am

13> I can just imagine the Hebrews repeating that :-)

16dchaikin
Set 8, 2015, 11:18 pm

Chapter 2 - the statue

So, Nebuchadnezzar has a dream he wants interpreted. But, he doesn't want anyone leading him on, he wants a real honest interpretation. So, he doesn't tells his wisemen what the dream was. They have to tell him what the dream was and then interpret...or they all die. (torn limb from limb). Daniel ask the executions for time, and "the mystery is revealed to him as a vision in the night. He celebrates with a little psalm to god.

Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar, "there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, and he has disclosed to King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen at the end of days.. Then he tells Nebuchadnezzar's he dreamt of a statue (See post 1). The statue has a head of gold, a chest of silver, a torso of bronze and legs of iron and feet that are mixture of iron and clay. "a stone was cut out, not by human hands,", hits the statue in the feet and knocks the whole thing down. Then Daniel interprets this: Nebuchadnezzar is the golden head. The silver represents the next lesser empire, and so on. As for the stone, well in represents the "end of days". "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall this kingdom be left to another people. It shall crush all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever; just as you saw that a stone was cut from the mountain not by hands, and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold."

This damn statue. It has been interpreted in so many different ways from so many different religious sects.

OK:
"end of days" is an interpretation of a phrase that may have simply meant a long time from now. But it's usually interpreted to mean Judgment Day, and has been interpreted this way for thousands of years.

scholarship statue:
gold head = Babylonian Empire
silver chest = Median Empire
bronze torso = Persian Empire
iron legs and mixed iron & clay feet = two post-Alexandrian Hellenic empires - The Seleucid and Ptolemaic.
Rock = future kingdom of God

Variations go something like this:
gold = almost always Babylon
silver = usually the Persian (and Median) empires
bronze = usually Greeks
iron & clay legs = Rome, or the divided Roman Empire, or the Frankish, Holy Roman and Ottoman empires. Each toe is given to yet another successor kingdom.
Rock = could be Christ, a future paradise on earth, the Mormon church today or many other things. Just note that every single biblical religion has yet another take on this. If dinosaurs were still around and could talk, they would tell you it came 69 million years ago.

The descending quality of metals metaphor can be found in Hesiod, Ovid and the Bahman Yasht, a Zoroastrian text of Persia.

17dchaikin
Set 8, 2015, 11:21 pm

The language used to describe what the stone does seems to reference Isaiah (41:15 & 51:1).

Daniel 2:34-35
As you looked on, a stone was cut out, not by human hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, were all broken in pieces and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

Isaiah 41:15-16
Now, I will make of you a threshing-sledge,
sharp, new, and having teeth;
you shall thresh the mountains and crush them,
and you shall make the hills like chaff.
You shall winnow them and the wind shall carry them away,
and the tempest shall scatter them.
Then you shall rejoice in the Lord;
in the Holy One of Israel you shall glory.

Isaiah 51:1
Listen to me, you that pursue righteousness,
you that seek the Lord.
Look to the rock from which you were hewn,
and to the quarry from which you were dug.

18dchaikin
Set 8, 2015, 11:21 pm

I managed to read chapters 4 & 5 today. Notes on this coming.

19dchaikin
Set 10, 2015, 12:18 am

Chapter 3

This is the story of Daniel's friends in the fiery furnace. I had never heard of it before, but it has tons of cultural references, including a song by Sly and the Family Stone.

Nebuchadnezzar has a golden statue erected, and then makes a decree that everyone must worship it. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego of course won't do that. When denounced, they are confronted by Nebuchadnezzar, who was "in furious rage". He demand that either they worship the statue or be thrown into a furnace. The three reply with a great line: "‘O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to present a defence to you in this matter. If our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire and out of your hand, O king, let him deliver us."

So, the three are together tossed in a human-sized furnace, and hang out unharmed in the heat. When Nebuchadnezzar looks in to see what is happening, he see them walking around with a fourth man, "and the fourth has the appearance of a god". So, Nebuchadnezzar lets them out and "Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego".

---

By this point it may be evident that none of these stories involve anything we think of as wisdom. Daniel and his friends are faithful to God, but do nothing else all the special on their own. God does all the answering and saving. Their "wisdom" is simple to have faith he will help them.

--

The golden statue links the story to chapter 2, but also seems to link the story to Antiochus IV, who supposedly erected a statue of Zeus in the temple. Also note the Herodotus and Diodorus Siculus both mention a golden statue of Zeus in Babylon, although their comments are generally supposed to be just a story.

20dchaikin
Set 10, 2015, 8:35 am

For Daniel and the Lions' den: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KTZBkqIsxvM

21dchaikin
Editado: Set 10, 2015, 10:41 pm

Chapter 4

Chapters 4 & 5 are linked, although only chapter 5 has the original writing on the wall. Chapter 4 has no great claim to fame.

In chapter 4 Nebuchadnezzar has a dream about a great tree. He is told to cut the tree down by a "holy watcher". Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar he is the tree, the that God is going to cut him down and he will go crazy.

Specifically, Daniel says, "You shall be driven away from human society, and your dwelling shall be with the wild animals. You shall be made to eat grass like oxen, you shall be bathed with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you, until you have learned that the Most High has sovereignty over the kingdom of mortals, and gives it to whom he will. "

It all comes to pass. Nebuchadnezzar learns his lesson in humility and that he is not above god.

On oddity in chapter 4 is that Nebuchadnezzar narrates the whole thing. It's written as a proclamation. The chapter opens: "King Nebuchadnezzar to all peoples, nations, and languages that live throughout the earth:"

22dchaikin
Set 10, 2015, 10:59 pm

Chapter 5

In chapter 5 Belshazzar, Nebuchadnezzar's son and successor (not in real history), has a feast. He has vessels looted from the temple in Jerusalem brought for use a the feast. Then a hand appears and writes a message on the wall. For no clear reason it can't read, and therefore certainly can't be interpreted. Daniel is called.

First Daniel tells Belshazzar he is not like his father, and then he gives an elaborate condemnation. Finally he reads the somewhat famous message and gives Belshazzar his sentence for disrespect - his has been weighed and found wanting and his kingdom with be divided and conquered. Daniel is rewarded, Belshazzar dies that night and Darius the Mede takes Babylon.

The message reads: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, PARSIN. It has two interpretations. First these are monetary units, with add up to 62 which equals the age of Darius. But Daniel plays on the sounds of the consonants.

- MN sounds like to number, so "God has numbered the days of your kingdom and brought it to an end"
- TKL sounds like to weigh, so "you have been weighed on the scales and found wanting"
- PRS sounds like to divide, so "your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians"

This is the origin the phrase The writing is on the wall, meaning imminent danger has become apparent.

23dchaikin
Editado: Set 10, 2015, 11:12 pm

Several oddities about chapters 4 & 5.

- first, it's interesting to compare them. Nebuchadnezzar learns, but Belshazzar isn't given the chance. He is simply wiped out dead.

But then there are the odd historical/not really historical, but actually kind of historical aspects

- chapter 4 takes from a fragment found in the Dead Sea Scrolls about the Babylonian King Nabonidus.
- Nabonidus did actually exile himself to a secluded retreat somewhere.
- Belshazzar was the historical son of Nabonidus. He never became king. He served as regent during his father's self-imposed exile, and was running Babylon when it fell.

Then there is Darius. There is a whole wikipedia page on Darius the Mede: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darius_the_Mede

All the Biblical commentaries say there was no Darius the Mede, only Darius the Persian emperor, father of Xerxes, and loser of the famous greek Battle of Marathon. That's all much later, but before this was written. Wikipedia, however, claims Darius the Mede was, if not real, at least believed by different people to have been real and to have taken Babylon - not Cyrus the Persian as Herodotus tells us. The problem, wikipedia implies, is that Darius the Mede isn't in Herodotus and so no one takes the other references to him, all obscure, seriously. It's not clear whether wikipedia is pulling something, or whether all the Biblical commentators are somehow ill informed. I kind of like the idea that we know so little about this time, that a Darius the Mede may well have taken Babylon and we can't even tell.

Anyway, next the lion's den. (Sorry Flo, no thorns)

24dchaikin
Set 16, 2015, 7:39 pm

for what it's worth I've finished. There was a part of chapter 7 that I was struck by, meaning I think I liked it. As for the rest, it seems very simple. This book some how feels dumber than others in the OT, if that makes sense. Hope that's not offensive to anyone.

25FlorenceArt
Editado: Set 17, 2015, 4:07 am

No thorn? I'm crushed. I wonder if the mistake was in the book I read, or in my remembering. It did sound strange, and not very biblical...

26dchaikin
Set 18, 2015, 6:24 pm

So, more on Belshazzar - His existence is more or less confirmed by archeological finds. But, before that, say in 164 BCE, he was known from at least two places, although not named, so we don't really know the source material for Daniel. Those two are Herodotus, of course, but also Xenophon.

I had never heard of Xenophon before this morning. He witnessed and wrote about Socrates and may have written some of his own works in response to, and as an argument against Plato's Republic. We actually have a lot of his works. In Cyropaedia, which roughly translates to "the education of Cyrus", as in Cyrus the Great of Persia, Xenophon writes about Cyrus's army taking Babylon. In both Herodotus and Xenophon, Cyrus has the river Euphrates diverted from Babylon, and his army then invaded through the river bed. (very unlikely, say most historians) In Xenophon, Cyrus's army basically surprised Babylon. Since Babylon was well stocked, they weren't particularly concerned about the siege. So, Cyrus attacks during a festival, when the guards are distracted or drunk. And Belshazzar is then found and killed that very night. This is perfectly consistent with Daniel.

Xenophon wrote Cyropaedia around 370 CE. Daniel comes from 164 CE, although the folk tales in chapters 1-6, including this story, were likely pulled from something older. So, anyway, Daniel may have pulled from Xenophon...

27dchaikin
Set 18, 2015, 11:02 pm

Chapter 6 - Daniel and the Lions' Den

Under Darius the possibly fictional Mede, Daniel is pretty much in charge. His enemies, notably three presidents, conspire to undermine him. They write Darius a law that says the people can not worship anyone but him for 30 days, and ask him to sign it "so that it cannot be changed". So he does. Then they show the king that Daniel is still worshiping towards Jerusalem. Darius regrets this and doesn't want to harm Daniel, but feels that he is forced to act by the law, which I found interesting.

We never see any lions. (So maybe there was a thorn, between the lines)

Daniel is tossed in the lions' den for night. In the morning Darius asks Daniel if his god saved him and Daniel replies, "My God sent his angel and shut the lions’ mouths so that they would not hurt me, because I was found blameless before him; and also before you, O king, I have done no wrong.’". Darius rejoices and sends Daniel's enemies, along with their wives and children, into the den. They are devoured. It's a happy ending.

Not much else to say about this, although I like the Bruce Springsteen song .

28dchaikin
Set 18, 2015, 11:12 pm

Chapter 7 - Daniel's dream visions of four beasts

This is the only chapter in Daniel that I actually enjoyed reading. Everything else was so simplistic, and so didactic or just a transparent commentary on the politics of 164 BCE Israel, obviously with an agenda. (Perhaps Fox News would find inspiration there.)

Here are the opening 8 lines:
In the first year of King Belshazzar of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions of his head as he lay in bed. Then he wrote down the dream: I, Daniel, saw in my vision by night the four winds of heaven stirring up the great sea, and four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another. The first was like a lion and had eagles’ wings. Then, as I watched, its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a human being; and a human mind was given to it. Another beast appeared, a second one, that looked like a bear. It was raised up on one side, had three ribs* in its mouth among its teeth and was told, ‘Arise, devour many bodies!’ After this, as I watched, another appeared, like a leopard. The beast had four wings of a bird on its back and four heads; and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the visions by night a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth and was devouring, breaking in pieces, and stamping what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that preceded it, and it had ten horns. I was considering the horns, when another horn appeared, a little one coming up among them; to make room for it, three of the earlier horns were plucked up by the roots. There were eyes like human eyes in this horn, and a mouth speaking arrogantly.

*NRSV actually says "tusks". My study bible notes say it can be either.

29dchaikin
Set 18, 2015, 11:21 pm

Some note just on those 8 lines:

- note the opening: "I, Daniel, saw in my vision by night the four winds of heaven stirring up the great sea" - The sea is Canaanite chaos. The winds are the forces of chaos, the same ones that Baal overcame. I think it sets a tone.

- I think this sounds a lot like Ezekiel.

- The lion eagle that becomes human is the Babylonian Empire. The human represents Nebuchadnezzar's recovery from insanity

- The bear with ribs hanging out of its mouth is the Median Empire

- The leopard-ish thingy with four heads is the Persian Empire

- The iron-toothed steamroller thingy is the army of Alexander the Great

- The ten horns are the next ten Seleucid rulers in Syria, after Alexander

- The little chauvinistic horn is Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who had to knock off three men ahead of him before he could inherit the Seleucid Empire.

30dchaikin
Editado: Set 18, 2015, 11:42 pm

Chapter 7 also includes the Ancient of Days, or the ancient one. His court is given a description as he personifies Judgment day by giving judgment over the fourth beast. This is lines 9-14. I have removed the poetic alignment, which I find distracting.
As I watched, thrones were set in place, and an Ancient One* took his throne; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames, and its wheels were burning fire.

A stream of fire issued and flowed out from his presence. A thousand thousand served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood attending him.

The court sat in judgement, and the books were opened.

I watched then because of the noise of the arrogant words that the horn was speaking. And as I watched, the beast was put to death, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

As I watched in the night visions, I saw one like a human being** coming with the clouds of heaven. And he came to the Ancient One* and was presented before him.

To him was given dominion and glory and kingship, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him.

His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away, and his kingship is one that shall never be destroyed.
* Ancient One is usually translated as Ancient of Days
** like a human being is usually translated as like a son of man, emphasizing the Christ-resemblance.

31dchaikin
Set 18, 2015, 11:35 pm

Some notes on those lines:

- There are wheels. Surely that is invoking Ezekiel's visions

- the son of man (or one like a human being) comes with the clouds, a Baal reference.

- yes, the son of man is often interpreted to be Christ

- also, yes, people seriously interpret the last 2000 years of world history based on this stuff. I mean lots of them do.

32dchaikin
Editado: Set 18, 2015, 11:43 pm

So, that chapter keeps going. Daniel doesn't understand his vision and finds an interpreter who explains it means a fourth kingdom of god is coming. Then Daniel persists trying to understand his dream vision, and more details come about how the little horn (read Antiochus IV) begins to repress and insult Jewish ritual and sacred sites. He does this for a time, times and half of time, a cool phrasing meaning 3 and half years, which ended not too long after the book was written.

33dchaikin
Set 20, 2015, 4:14 pm

Chapter 8 - ram, male goat and Gabriel

The text reverts back to Hebrew from Aramaic, and, according to my study bible, the literary style deteriorates.

It's same point as chapter 7, but with different symbols. The ram with uneven horns represents Persia & Media. It's vanquished by the male goat, which flies over to the ram without touching the ground, representing Alexander and his army. The goat has a horn that splits into four, representing the four successor Greek kingdoms. A little horn comes out and attacks the heavens, representing Antiochus IV. The little horn then seems to fail the allegory by doing religious transgressions and ending religious rituals, something very goat-hornlike it would seem. This goes on for 2300 "Evenings or mornings", or 1150 days, or 3.15 years - close enough to 3.5 years.

Daniel doesn't understand the vision, but the angle Gabriel appears and explains "‘Understand, O mortal, that the vision is for the time of the end.". Then he explains in some detail, but is quite vague about the little horn. Daniel still did not understand.

34dchaikin
Set 20, 2015, 4:18 pm

A couple notes:

- Gabriel seemed to have derived from the Hebrew word "gaber", meaning "has the appearance of man." Gabriel possibly wasn't even meant as a name, but just as a description.

- The ram and goat correspond with Greek astrological constellations associated with the corresponding empires.

35FlorenceArt
Set 20, 2015, 4:37 pm

>30 dchaikin: This afternoon I was at the Sainte-chapelle in Vincennes, looking at the stained glass windows that depict the apocalypse. In the explanatory texts there was a mention of someone "who looked like a son of man". I searched my Olive Tree bible but couldn't find the passage.

36dchaikin
Set 20, 2015, 7:03 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_man

Ezekiel is called "son of man" some 90 times (translated in NRSV at "mortal"). Daniel 7 has "one like the son of man", meaning originally something human-like but different, as in an angel.

37dchaikin
Editado: Set 20, 2015, 7:20 pm

Chapter 9 - reinterpretation of Jeremiah.

Daniel reads Jeremiah's prophecy of 70 years, then prays to god, with a long prayer (I called it a prose psalm about the shame of Jerusalem).

Then Gabriel reappears and gives Daniel a prophecy matching the political situation in, say 167 to 164 BCE. Among is prophecy is an explanation that Jeremiah's 70 years are actually 70 * 7 years, or 490 years.

38dchaikin
Set 20, 2015, 7:19 pm

What these 490 years are and when they ended or will end has been a fruitful topic for creative biblical interpretation for a long time, made especially famous by the Millerites, who, when that prophecy failed, led to the 7th Day Adventists. It has also been warped into various rapture like groups using the gap theory...

Anyway, the study bible tells me those 490 years will end right about 164 BCE (which means the would have started in about 654 BCE, which has no significance I can think of). The point is the writers were expecting the end of Seleucid rule any day now. And they were right. Antiochus would die in campaign in Persia and the Maccabees would take over the Israelite territories and found the Hasmonean dynasty, which lasted forever...well, at least until the Romans held sway. But the writing of Daniel was likely part of that Maccabean revolt.

39dchaikin
Set 20, 2015, 7:22 pm

Wikipedia notes the fundamental contradiction in Daniel making a prayer: If everything is already laid out in a grand plan, then what difference will a prayer make?

40dchaikin
Editado: Set 20, 2015, 7:43 pm

Chapters 10-12 are all in of piece. Chapter 10 is like a prologue, chapter 11 is a long prophecy provided by an angel and v40-45 are a true prophecy predicting what would happen after 164 BCE (incorrectly). Chapter 12 is an epilogue.

Within all this is

- Daniel speaking with an interesting angel in linen, usually understood as Gabriel. He gives the prophecy

- The introduction of Michael, another angel, " the great prince, the protector of your people". He is fighting for Israel in heaven again Babylon, Persian, Media, Greece and so on.

- That means the the wars on land reflect parallel wars of the gods.

- A very elaborate history of the wars between Seleucid rulers of Syria and Ptolemaic rulers of Egypt. Ptolemies ruled Israel after Alexander, and were evicted by the Seleucids.

- A very detailed history of Antiochus IV Epiphanes (unnamed).

- The mention of the Romans. In 168 BCE Antiochus's invasion of Egypt was apparently stopped by "the ships of Kittim", here meaning a Roman navy.

- A real prophecy. Antiochus would invade Egypt a third time and be killed. This doesn't happen. Antiochus died on campaign in Persia in 164 BCE.

- a revelation of who is writing this. v11:33 : "The wise among the people shall give understanding to many; for some days, however, they shall fall by sword and flame, and suffer captivity and plunder."

- the end of time
--- v11:27 - "The two kings, their minds bent on evil, shall sit at one table and exchange lies. But it shall not succeed, for there remains an end at the time appointed."
--- v11:35 - "Some of the wise shall fall, so that they may be refined, purified, and cleansed, until the time of the end, for there is still an interval until the time appointed. "
--- v11:40 - "At the time of the end... "
--- v12:1 - "At that time..."

And then there is chapter 12...

41FlorenceArt
Set 21, 2015, 1:49 am

Oh, the suspense!

42dchaikin
Set 23, 2015, 9:34 am

oops, didn't mean to leave you on the edge there. :) I haven't been able to get back to this yet...

43dchaikin
Set 25, 2015, 6:44 pm

Chapter 12 - the epilogue

(finally...)

Chapter 12 begins, "At the time...". That time is the end of time, the end of Seleucid rule, and the end of the prohibition against temple rituals. But, it's a lot more than that, it's a full Judgment day.

We learn:

- There shall be a time of anguish, such as has never occurred since nations first came into existence.

- But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book.

- So, who is written in the book, and what does "delivered" mean?

... well...

- Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

...and, note the wise again

- Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky...

44dchaikin
Editado: Set 25, 2015, 6:54 pm

Then the question is asked, when is the time?

Gabriel gives three answers

1. a time, times, and half a time,

2 & 3. From the time that the regular burnt-offering is taken away and the abomination that desolates is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Happy are those who persevere and attain the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

So, if you are a Millerite (you aren't, there haven't been any since about 1841), or a member of some other various religious groups, then you understand exactly what this means. Clearly 1290 = 1335 = the obvious date of Judgment day.

For the rest of us, what the... ??

45dchaikin
Set 25, 2015, 6:54 pm

The general interpretation, given by wikipedia, the study bible, and others, is that the "time" didn't come after 1290 days. So, they added a line to allow more time.

46dchaikin
Editado: Set 25, 2015, 7:16 pm

Some notes from James Kugel's How to read the bible:

Kugel has some interesting perspectives.

1. Alexander the great marks a huge era of change for Jews.

Suddenly the rulers are Hellenic and pushing Greek culture as the hgh culture. I think it's worth spending some time pondering what that meant. Who liked it? Who was conflicted? What a mishmash of cultural responses and tensions.

(Can't help myself. I keep thinking, the Greeks take over the world and all we Jews get is the book of Daniel. ... Perhaps I shouldn't post that.)

2. History isn't working.

The Jews have returned to Judea, but they are just a little country thoroughly controlled by much larger forces. Where is the new David, or the new Messiah?

Daniel is very much a reassessment of history. It's a fundamental purpose of the book. No exile and return and paradise. There is a new pattern. First a Golden age, then silver age, then bronze age, then iron and clay age. And then, next, surely is paradise.

3. Apocalyptic writing

Wikipedia fails at explaining this. Kugel was helpful here.

- divine secrets about patterns and the way the world works.
- an end of time
- affinities for wisdom writing
- all choose an ancient sage as the author
---- Daniel is both the guy from 6th century Babylon and also Danel from the Ugarit texts, who is mentioned in Ezekiel along side Job

Biblical-ish examples of apocalyptic writing:
- Daniel
- Enoch 1 & 2
- Ezra 4
- Baruch 1 & 2
- Revelation.

47dchaikin
Set 25, 2015, 11:27 pm

Shemaryahu Talmon writes the chapter on Daniel in The Literary Guide to the Bible. I thought he had some interesting points

1. Folk tales and prophecy

It's the court tales in chapters 1-6 that led the Jewish Bible to put Daniel in the Writings, betwen Esther and Ezra.

It's the prophecies in chapters 7-12 that led Christians Bibles to put Daniel in with the prophets.

2. 3 + 1

He has a number of examples of this:
- Daniel and three friends
- Three empires, then Alexander
- David and three older brothers
- Solomon was the fourth child of David
- Eleazar was the fourth child of Aaron
- Proverbs has the 3 and 4 sayings
- Balaam blesses the Israelites three times when he is supposed to curse them. Then adds a forth blessing
- Amos has something about three transgressions, then four (haven't read him yet)
- also, here, several chapters happen in the third year of a ruler

In all these, the fourth is always the "quintessence" - Talmon's word

3. The type plot

A fatherless young Judean/Israelite exile excels in a foreign land

-Joseph (in Exodus)
-Esther & Mordecai
-Nehemiah & Ezra
-Daniel

4. It's Talmon that led me to look up Xenophon (post 26)

48dchaikin
Out 20, 2015, 11:23 pm

The 12 minor prophets have been kicked off here: https://www.librarything.com/topic/200241