Tutored read: Mansfield Park by Jane Austen - Thread 2

Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (1814)

Please continue our discussion of Mansfield Park here!

Parking right here!

Popcorn is popping and I'm fluffing pillows . . .

Volume II, Chapters 1 to 3 (or 19 to 21)

Chapter 1 (or 19)

94. "Maria joined them with the same intent, just then the stoutest of the three; for the very circumstance which had driven Julia away was to her the sweetest support"
Please explain this passage.

95. "and with it compassion for him and for almost every one of the party on the development before him"
I'm not sure I understand that part.

96. "while Mr. Yates considered it only as a temporary interruption, a disaster for the evening, and could even suggest the possibility of the rehearsal being renewed after tea, when the bustle of receiving Sir Thomas were over, and he might be at leisure to be amused by it."
Just one of many examples, of which we've had several before—with many more to come still—of how utterly clueless Mr Yates can be!

97. "But Mr. Yates, having never been with those who thought much of parental claims, or family confidence, could not perceive that anything of the kind was necessary; and therefore, thanking them, said, "he preferred remaining where he was"
I need to ask: was Mr Yates raised in a barnyard, or is he an orphan maybe? I thought he was a gentleman of some basic sort of breeding, isn't he?

98. "As she entered, her own name caught her ear. Sir Thomas was at that moment looking round him, and saying, "But where is Fanny? Why do not I see my little Fanny?"—and on perceiving her, came forward with a kindness which astonished and penetrated her, calling her his dear Fanny, kissing her affectionately, and observing with decided pleasure how much she was grown! Fanny knew not how to feel, nor where to look. She was quite oppressed. He had never been so kind, so very kind to her in his life. His manner seemed changed, his voice was quick from the agitation of joy; and all that had been awful in his dignity seemed lost in tenderness. He led her nearer the light and looked at her again—inquired particularly after her health, and then, correcting himself, observed that he need not inquire, for her appearance spoke sufficiently on that point."
I must say I was utterly astonished at his change of behaviour towards Fanny myself at this juncture, having completely forgotten about this passage. What can have come over him? Is it simply a case of absence having made the heart grown fonder?

99. "Mrs Norris felt herself defrauded of an office on which she had always depended, whether his arrival or his death were to be the thing unfolded; and was now trying to be in a bustle without having anything to bustle about, and labouring to be important where nothing was wanted but tranquillity and silence. Would Sir Thomas have consented to eat, she might have gone to the housekeeper with troublesome directions, and insulted the footmen with injunctions of despatch"
That woman is simply despicable! But then I can't help but feel sorry for her too. This passage seems to show that she desperately needs to justify her presence and importance in Sir Thomas's life, and suggests that she might at heart be a truly insecure person. Aren't most bullies trying to hide the fact that they feel themselves to be insignificant by covering it up with all their bluster?

100. "The all will soon be told," cried Tom hastily, and with affected unconcern; "but it is not worth while to bore my father with it now. You will hear enough of it to-morrow, sir. We have just been trying, by way of doing something, and amusing my mother, just within the last week, to get up a few scenes, a mere trifle. We have had such incessant rains almost since October began, that we have been nearly confined to the house for days together."
Interesting how Tom, one of the biggest proponents for putting up a play now makes it seem like he didn't care for the thing at all. A hypocrite through and through. Not surprising in light of what he's already shown himself to be like.

101. "Tom Bertram entered at the other end of the room; and never had he found greater difficulty in keeping his countenance. His father's looks of solemnity and amazement on this his first appearance on any stage, and the gradual metamorphosis of the impassioned Baron Wildenheim into the well-bred and easy Mr. Yates, making his bow and apology to Sir Thomas Bertram, was such an exhibition, such a piece of true acting, as he would not have lost upon any account. It would be the last—in all probability—the last scene on that stage; but he was sure there could not be a finer. The house would close with the greatest eclat."
This has got to be one of the best passages in the book so far! I can just see Jane Austen taking the greatest delight in reading out this section of her manuscript to her family gathered around the parlour, and everyone clapping and laughing at her last words!

102. As another aside, I note that Mr Yates is described here as being well-bred, which is something I seriously call into question from what we've seen so far, and what he is about to show us. Surely Jane Austen meant this as undiluted sarcasm?

103. "Mr. Yates took the subject from his friend as soon as possible, and immediately gave Sir Thomas an account of what they had done and were doing: told him of the gradual increase of their views, the happy conclusion of their first difficulties, and present promising state of affairs; relating everything with so blind an interest as made him not only totally unconscious of the uneasy movements of many of his friends as they sat, the change of countenance, the fidget, the hem! of unquietness, but prevented him even from seeing the expression of the face on which his own eyes were fixed—from seeing Sir Thomas's dark brow contract as he looked with inquiring earnestness at his daughters and Edmund, dwelling particularly on the latter, and speaking a language, a remonstrance, a reproof, which he felt at his heart."

"Mr. Yates was still talking. "To own the truth, Sir Thomas, we were in the middle of a rehearsal when you arrived this evening. We were going through the three first acts, and not unsuccessfully upon the whole. Our company is now so dispersed, from the Crawfords being gone home, that nothing more can be done to-night; but if you will give us the honour of your company to-morrow evening, I should not be afraid of the result. We bespeak your indulgence, you understand, as young performers; we bespeak your indulgence."
More examples of 'exemplary breeding'.

104. "in my opinion it is very disagreeable to be always rehearsing. It is having too much of a good thing. I am not so fond of acting as I was at first. I think we are a great deal better employed, sitting comfortably here among ourselves, and doing nothing."
...
"He was aware that he must not expect a genius in Mr. Rushworth; but as a well-judging, steady young man, with better notions than his elocution would do justice to, he intended to value him very highly."
I take it Mr Rushworth's speech wasn't properly delivered? Is it grammatically or otherwise unsound as well?



edited 103.

(Next chapter follows)

Chapter 2 (or 20)

105. "and acknowledging, with perfect ingenuousness, that his concession had been attended with such partial good as to make his judgment in it very doubtful"
I think I understand the general sense of the thing, from knowing Edmund's feelings about the play, but please explain this passage which is completely confusing to me!

106. "He did not enter into any remonstrance with his other children: he was more willing to believe they felt their error than to run the risk of investigation."
I don't think (and correct me if I'm wrong) we've had any positive proof before of Sir Thomas's bad parenting before, but this is definitely a blatant example of it; he has a conversation with the most morally sound of his children (when it was Edmund himself who sought to see his father), and doesn't even consider it necessary to utter a word to those most in need of moral guidance. From what you've told us early on Liz, I take it Sir Thomas isn't even aware there is anything amiss with the moral fibre of his other children, even though they've just shown him ample proof of the contrary!

107. "Mrs Norris was a little confounded and as nearly being silenced as ever she had been in her life; for she was ashamed to confess having never seen any of the impropriety which was so glaring to Sir Thomas, and would not have admitted that her influence was insufficient—that she might have talked in vain."
Since she has no sense of right and wrong to begin with, it's hardly conceivable that she would have thought to try to keep her nephews and nieces on the right path; it seems her highest priority is to make herself seem important above anything else.

108. "'Coachman, you had much better not go; your Lady and I shall be very safe; you know how steady Stephen is, and Charles has been upon the leaders so often now, that I am sure there is no fear.'"
What does that mean?

109. "You know how I always feel for the horses. And when we got to the bottom of Sandcroft Hill, what do you think I did? You will laugh at me; but I got out and walked up. I did indeed. It might not be saving them much, but it was something, and I could not bear to sit at my ease and be dragged up at the expense of those noble animals."
I have to wonder whether any of this is true... seems rather unlikely coming as it does from Mrs Norris!

110. "Sir Thomas gave up the point, foiled by her evasions, disarmed by her flattery; and was obliged to rest satisfied with the conviction that where the present pleasure of those she loved was at stake, her kindness did sometimes overpower her judgment."
I don't know how he fares in other matters, but as concerns his children and his sister-in-law, Sir Thomas is a complete and utter fool!

111. Can you please tell me what a stewart and bailiff's duties were when working for someone such as Sir Thomas?

112. "Mr. Yates was beginning now to understand Sir Thomas's intentions, though as far as ever from understanding their source."
Their source?



(Next chapter follows) (eta: tomorrow)

Volume II, Chapter 1 / Chapter 19

94. Maria is feeling brave because she believes that Henry continuing to hold her hand in the middle of this crisis means he really is serious; whereas Julia, whose first impulse was to sympathise with the group, separates herself from the rest when she notices the hand-holding.

95. "The development before him" means the unexpected event that Sir Thomas has encountered. Fanny is simultaneously feeling for both sides of the situation - for Sir Thomas, on coming home to this mess, and for the others, having to confront him and explain - and feels terrible in spite of the fact that she's done nothing wrong.

96. & 97. No, more likely he's another example of someone who has been effectively raised by the servants rather than his parents. What we might think of as "family life" didn't really evolve until the latter half of the 19th century and there was often almost total disconnect between parents and children. Mr Yates obviously hasn't grown up with any particular family feeling or any sense that he should consider the feelings of others.

98. The point has been made a few times that Sir Thomas doesn't really know how to interact with the young people. They find him intimidating and oppressive and (particularly the girls) just tend to keep quiet around him, instead of being themselves; this is why Sir Thomas never grasps that Maria and Julia aren't all that they should be. Likewise, he was probably always fond of Fanny but never able to express it - and of course, she was twice as intimidated by him as any of the others.

But in his gladness at being home Sir Thomas is able to speak out properly, and so Fanny realises for the first time that he really does care about her and take an interest in her.

99. I think your secondary reading there of Mrs Norris is quite correct, she has to make herself feel important and needed.

100. He's just putting off the unavoidable explanation for as long as possible.

101. Yes, that's brilliant. Austen often doers that, of course, follow a big dramatic scene with a humorous little coda.

102. & 103 "Well-bred" in this context just means his manners. He might not understand why he should care about what Sir Thomas feels, but he does understand how to behave when he is introduced to him. Though he then spoils it by trying to make conversation... (We almost feel sorry for Tom here!)

104. Between the remark about Henry and his putting his love of tranquillity in terms of no more rehearsals, Mr Rushworth has already given himself away as not particularly intelligent; but Sir Thomas is in a mood to give him the benefit of the doubt and to assume that his ideas are sound but he just isn't very good at expressing himself.

We've seen in other Austen novels, particularly Pride And Prejudice, that how people used language was considered an important measure of their character, and here at this first meeting Sir Thomas is measuring Mr Rushworth according to how he talks. (And Yates, for that matter!)

Volume II, Chapter 2 / Chapter 20

105. Briefly, "it seemed like a good idea at the time". :)

He thought he had good reason for what he did, but now he can see everything that was wrong with his back-down.

106. Yes, he retreats from asking questions he doesn't want the answers to. In this particular case, we can at least partially chalk that up to just wanting to be at home again and sit and rest after all his hardships, but it's another example of him not looking beyond the surface.

107. And this is the person to whom Sir Thomas has left the raising of his daughters.

108. Mrs Norris is recounting a (possibly fictional) conversation between herself and the estate's head coachman, when she tried to persuade him to stay at home and leave the management of the journey to Sotheron in the care of his underlings - one (Stephen) would actually drive the carriage, the other (Charles) would guide the horses.

When a carriage had four or more horses, they would be harnessed in pairs; the front pair (often the more experienced carriage horses) were called "the leaders". Sometimes a young groom would ride one of the leaders as an extra control.

109. It is true that people often did do that when a carriage had to be pulled up hill (weather and road conditions permitting), but whether it's true Mrs Norris did it...??

110. The long-term consequences are disastrous, but I guess we can understand why life with Mrs Norris might lead to a lot of giving in - anything for a little peace! :)

111. There were house stewards and land stewards; since Sir Thomas has a steward and a bailiff, we can assume the steward is a house steward, who was not considered a servant but a professional man rather like a solicitor. His job was to manage the hiring, firing, payment and general oversight of all the servants.

The bailiff's job was to manage the lands attached to the estate, particularly the farms from which estate income was derived.

112. He understands what Sir Thomas is doing but not why he's doing it - he can't understand why Sir Thomas is so intent on wiping away all memories of the theatre.

Thanks for the above Liz.

Here are my questions for that third chapter I was too tired to finish typing last night:

Volume II, Chapter 3 / Chapter 21

113. "But the truth is, that my father hardly knows them. They had not been here a twelvemonth when he left England"
Would a year not have been enough for him to have gotten passably acquainted with them?

114. "Your uncle thinks you very pretty, dear Fanny—and that is the long and the short of the matter. Anybody but myself would have made something more of it, and anybody but you would resent that you had not been thought very pretty before; but the truth is, that your uncle never did admire you till now—and now he does. Your complexion is so improved!—and you have gained so much countenance!"
I've commented on this before—wondering what came over Sir Thomas that he would suddenly appreciate Fanny. You say he always did. But all the same, have her looks possibly improved? Is Edmund seeing her with different eyes himself now his father has pointed her out to him?

115. "But I do talk to him more than I used. I am sure I do. Did not you hear me ask him about the slave-trade last night?"
I suppose that's as much as we'll be hearing about the slave-trade in the entire novel. Are we to understand from what Fanny says following this that her question was simply ignored because people usually ignore her, or rather because it was an unccomfortable subject? Was it considered bold of JA to mention the very word 'slavery' at all, or was it spoken of freely among the gentry?

116. "After a little while, I dare say, we shall be meeting again in the same sort of way, allowing for the difference of the time of year."
What allowances would need to be made?

117. "Advantageous as would be the alliance, and long standing and public as was the engagement, her happiness must not be sacrificed to it.

"With solemn kindness Sir Thomas addressed her: told her his fears, inquired into her wishes, entreated her to be open and sincere, and assured her that every inconvenience should be braved, and the connexion entirely given up, if she felt herself unhappy in the prospect of it. He would act for her and release her. "
How very different from the other situations we've read about so far, where there was no question of a young woman being able to think twice about refusing a prospective husband because of dire financial prospects. But of course as we'll see shortly, Maria herself sees things quite differently from her father and also thinks she has no other viable options than marrying the odious little Mr Rushworth...

118. "It was a very proper wedding ... Nothing could be objected to when it came under the discussion of the neighbourhood, except that the carriage which conveyed the bride and bridegroom and Julia from the church-door to Sotherton was the same chaise which Mr. Rushworth had used for a twelvemonth before. In everything else the etiquette of the day might stand the strictest investigation."
What this really an issue or is Austen being merely facetious here?

119. "she had made the match; she had done everything; and no one would have supposed, from her confident triumph, that she had ever heard of conjugal infelicity in her life, or could have the smallest insight into the disposition of the niece who had been brought up under her eye."
There's a lot being said here, for instance, it was made clear to us that Mrs Norris was never happier than when she became widowed, so could not have found the conjugal state very much to her liking. But it's true enough she did everything in her power to make the match happen, isn't it?



Off to read a couple more chapters; will post more questions later today.

Volume II, Chapter 3 / Chapter 21

113. Sir Thomas isn't much of a socialiser generally, but in addition the social gap between Mansfield Park and the Mansfield vicarage is wide enough that he and the Grants are only formally acquainted. It's different with the young people from both families, who can interact on the same level.

114. She's older, a young woman rather than a teenager, so that's part of it. But probably it's that Sir Thomas is seeing her with fresh eyes. Up until he left home he may have unconsciously always had "just a poor relation" in the back of his mind when dealing with her, but now he is reacting to her just in her own right.

115. That *is* as much as we get, which is why I get a little exasperated with people who want to reinterpret the entire novel based on that one sentence. :)

Slave trading had been outlawed in Britain in 1807, but not the use of slave labour, which was still the basis of British holdings in the West Indies until 1833, when the Slavery Abolition Act was passed. So it is almost certain that the property Sir Thomas goes to look into was operated with slave labour, and that a portion of the Bertrams' income is derived from slavery.

We don't know explicitly where Jane Austen stood on the subject, but we do know that many of her favourite writers, who were conversely vocal on the subject, were passionately anti-slavery. We also know from her letters that she read abolitionist literature, so we may infer that her views were along those lines---and that in turn, so are Fanny's.

As for Fanny's question to Sir Thomas, the "dead silence" that follows it has been variously interpreted. Some people have suggested that it implies a faux-pas on Fanny's part, in bringing up slavery at all; others that it is just another example of how Sir Thomas's family always is silent in his presence---and that Fanny then also falls silent in terror of "putting herself forward". Note, though, that Edmund remarks, "It would have pleased your uncle to be inquired of farther." That certainly doesn't suggest that Fanny has said anything wrong, even though we do not know and cannot begin to guess what her specific question may have been.

(This is a subject that has provoked endless and often fascinating speculation - do we need to take it further here?)

116. Visiting patterns varied according to the time of the year. It is October now, and visiting could be more difficult during autumn and winter because of the weather. Furthermore, the New Year may take Mary at least to London for the Season.

117. Here we see how different things were for girls in comfortable circumstances. In fact at this time, girls in Maria's social position, of the upper gentry, probably had more say about their marriage than any others, which makes her choice even more painful to contemplate---given that she has a choice, when so many girls didn't.

118. She's showing us that, then as now, weddings tend to be about what other people expect, rather than what the bride and groom want.

119. It highlights the general attitude to marriage, where even the worst kind was supposed to be better than no marriage at all. Even Mrs Norris, who was glad enough to be out of hers, thinks so, and rates her "success" with regard to Maria in terms of property and money.

Volume II, Chapter 3 / Chapter 21

Ouch:

To such feelings delay, even the delay of much preparation, would have been an evil, and Mr Rushworth could hardly be more impatient for the marriage than herself. In all the important preparations of the mind she was complete: being prepared for matrimony by an hatred of home, restraint, and tranquillity; by the misery of disappointed affection, and contempt of the man she was to marry. The rest might wait.

115. That *is* as much as we get, which is why I get a little exasperated with people who want to reinterpret the entire novel based on that one sentence. :)

Slave trading had been outlawed in Britain in 1807,

A total aside here about a completely different book, but I thought it was interesting how Jo Barker put an ex-slave on staff with Charles Bingley in Longbourn (aka Downton Abbey meets Pride & Prejudice). Bingley is new money (or new-ish) and it's not unreasonable to think that his grandfather was involved with slave owning.

Just making an observation. Sorry to interrupt ;-)

Interrupt away! :)

I think the Bingleys' money is vaguely accounted for as coming from "in the north", which I always took to mean Manchester. Not to say they couldn't have had more than one source of income, as the Bertrams do.

Yes, "in the North", which I think means fabric making (and pottery/china and probably lots of other things I'll think of after I hit "post message"). Much of the materials come from India and . . . the Americas. I think if you're from the moneyed class of 19th century England, your money comes from some sort of exploitation.

One more aspect of the slavery debate - it has been pointed out that Austen's brother Francis, who was in the navy, was part of a squadron responsible for intercepting illegal slave-trading boats post-1807.

Posting my questions tomorrow. Too tired to so tonight!

No problem, Ilana!

Does anyone else want to add comments or questions?

Lyzard, I was under the impression that Fanny is eighteen throughout most of the novel. I took Sir Thomas's comments as in keeping of him being both intimidating and a bit skeevy and that his comments showed that Fanny had developed a bit while he was away and now that he has noticed that she's pretty, she's suddenly worthy of his notice.

I really dislike Sir Thomas.

Volume II, Chapters 4 & 5 / Chapters 22 & 23

Chapter 4 / Chapter 22

120. "in detecting her to be wetter than she would at first allow, and providing her with dry clothes"
This seems simple enough on the face of it, but I can't imagine the sort of clothes they wore in those days were easy to borrow. Mind you, I guess the ladies' fashions at that particular period were far simpler to wear than were those that developed later in the 19th century with all the petticoats and such.

121. "and between ourselves, till I came to Mansfield, I had not imagined a country parson ever aspired to a shrubbery, or anything of the kind."
Am I right in thinking Miss Crawford is making her comment on two levels here? Both about country parsons in general, and about Edmund in particular? Is aspiring to a shrubbery any great sort of aspiration??

122. "I am something like the famous Doge at the court of Lewis XIV.; and may declare that I see no wonder in this shrubbery equal to seeing myself in it."
Is that really how Louis XIV was spelled, or is that just another example of the wildly irregular spelling of the period? What was the original Doge's declaration?

123. "I am so glad your eldest cousin is gone, that he may be Mr. Bertram again."
...
"I grant you the name is good in itself, and Lord Edmund or Sir Edmund sound delightfully; but sink it under the chill, the annihilation of a Mr., and Mr. Edmund is no more than Mr. John or Mr. Thomas."
It seems Miss Crawford has changed her mind between her first pronouncement and her second, doesn't it?

124. "My dear child, commend Dr. Grant to the deanery of Westminster or St. Paul's"
Is this a normal comment to make, or does it indicate they have overly ambitious aspirations, as Mrs Norris implies very nastily in the next chapter? ("and how much more he would have been respected! for people are never respected when they step out of their proper sphere."..."The nonsense and folly of people's stepping out of their rank and trying to appear above themselves")

125. "This was so new an attention, so perfectly new a circumstance in the events of Fanny's life, that she was all surprise and embarrassment"
Was a dinner invitation really such a big deal? Especially one to 'just' the Grant's place?



Chapter 5 / Chapter 23

126. "I will ask Sir Thomas, as soon as he comes in, whether I can do without her."
...
"But can I do without her, Sir Thomas?"
...
"She always makes tea, you know, when my sister is not here."
So far, this is the most we hear from Lady Bertram, and it seems amazing how agitated she gets at the prospect of losing Fanny's presence for the period of just one evening. What, other than making tea would Lady Bertram have depended on her for? And how complicated would have been making tea that she couldn't have done it herself? Or asked one of the maids to do it if it was too lowly a task for her? Why was she so dependent on Fanny in particular if she could just as well have her sister for companionship?

127. "Nor must you be fancying that the invitation is meant as any particular compliment to you; the compliment is intended to your uncle and aunt and me."
...
"Remember, wherever you are, you must be the lowest and last;"
I've just quoted two short bits from that astounding speech from Mrs Norris, but she really outdoes herself in that whole section for sheer cruelty, airing of petty grievances, and proper quashing of any remaining self-confidence Fanny might have at that point. She's a truly wicked, wicked woman, and I could wish a bolt of lighting came out of nowhere and struck her down when she finished delivering that torrent of malicious treatment! And how dare she imply the invitation was in ANY WAY meant as a compliment to herself! That woman is simply delusional!!!

128. "And if it should rain, which I think exceedingly likely, for I never saw it more threatening for a wet evening in my life, you must manage as well as you can, and not be expecting the carriage to be sent for you."
...
"My niece walk to a dinner engagement at this time of the year! Will twenty minutes after four suit you?"
VERY LOUD CHEERING NOISES!!! :-D
For once Sir Thomas manages to do the right thing. Who would have thought? Of course, he does it completely unconsciously, but it's something.

129. "He will have a very pretty income to make ducks and drakes with"
What does this mean?

130. "Miss Crawford could have said that there would be a something to do and to suffer for it, which she could not think lightly of; but she checked herself and let it pass"
I don't understand this passage.

131. "She was very angry with him. She had thought her influence more. She had begun to think of him; she felt that she had, with great regard, with almost decided intentions; but she would now meet him with his own cool feelings. It was plain that he could have no serious views, no true attachment, by fixing himself in a situation which he must know she would never stoop to."
It's all good and well to think she had enough influence over him to make him change his mind, but they had discussed the matter more than once, and hadn't he made it clear to her that he didn't have other options open to him?

>18 RidgewayGirl:

No, you're missing the passing of time. Sir Thomas is away for about two years; Fanny is fifteen or sixteen when he goes (she is fifteen when Mr Norris dies, which is shortly before Sir Thomas's departure), and about eighteen when he gets back. So she is older, maybe a bit more poised - and, due to him not being there to intimidate her, perhaps a bit less timid and self-effacing, too.

We shouldn't overlook the fact that parents often didn't take much notice of their own children at this time, until they were considered old enough to join the adult circle. Fanny has reached that stage now.

But really, I think it's just a matter of him being pleased to be home and to see everyone; and as Edmund points out, she's the only one of the group not to do something wrong during his absence. Possibly that also contributes to the shift that we see (noted in Ilana's questions) from a mindset of "Lady Bertram's poor relation" to "Sir Thomas Bertram's niece".

Volume II, Chapter 4 / Chapter22)

120. Yes, a lot easier back then, for sure! Regency clothes were surprisingly flimsy, in fact.

121. It's probably indicative that country parsonages (and everything belonging to country parsonages) were at one time all lumped together in her mind - and dismissed together, too. Now she realises that there are different sorts, with different incomes, different situations, different levels of comfort - and sometimes features that seem to indicate that the owner is cultured, has a reasonable income, and is aspiring to something better...like a shrubbery. :)

122. It's an Anglicisation, which was quite common (though indicating it would be pronounced "Lewis" not "Lou-ee"). The Doge of Genoa visited Paris in 1685. Supposedly when he was asked his opinion of the Galerie des Glaces at Versailles, he replied, "I see no wonder in the place equal to seeing myself in it."

123. No, it's all about rank. "Mr", without a name following, indicates an eldest son - an heir. Edmund is only "Mr Bertram" now because Tom, the rightful owner of that name, is away. "Mr Edmund---" places him as a younger son (with no prospects).

And then Mary goes on to think that while "Mr" is all very well, "Lord" or "Sir" would be even better...

124. No, simply that Mary is pointing out the negative aspects of country life, and her sister responds by saying, in effect, that she would be very happy for Dr Grant to get a better-paid position, with more luxuries attached, but in the meantime she'll just have to make the best of things.

125. It's the first time she's ever been invited out in her own right, so a big deal for Fanny, yes.

But also...

Volume II, Chapter 4 / Chapter 22

...we should pay close attention to the conversation between Mary and Edmund here, as it is in effect the beginning of a struggle between them to see if either of them can compromise, or whether they might somehow find middle ground. At this point, still prior to Edmund's ordination, Mary is tacitly warning him that he shouldn't go through with it.

    "I mean to be too rich to lament or to feel anything of the sort. A large income is the best recipe for happiness I ever heard of. It certainly may secure all the myrtle and turkey part of it."
    "You intend to be very rich?" said Edmund, with a look which, to Fanny's eye, had a great deal of serious meaning.
    "To be sure. Do not you? Do not we all?"
    "I cannot intend anything which it must be so completely beyond my power to command. Miss Crawford may chuse her degree of wealth. She has only to fix on her number of thousands a year, and there can be no doubt of their coming. My intentions are only not to be poor."
    "By moderation and economy, and bringing down your wants to your income, and all that. I understand you—and a very proper plan it is for a person at your time of life, with such limited means and indifferent connexions. What can you want but a decent maintenance? You have not much time before you; and your relations are in no situation to do anything for you, or to mortify you by the contrast of their own wealth and consequence. Be honest and poor, by all means—but I shall not envy you; I do not much think I shall even respect you. I have a much greater respect for those that are honest and rich."

Volume II, Chapter 5 / Chapter 23

126. Any change to routine flusters her, and here we have two at once - Fanny being asked out and, consequently, not being home as she normally is to fuss over Lady Bertram.

"Making tea", we should note, does not actually mean making tea - it means serving tea, pouring out to people's liking and handing around the cups. This was a female duty that usually devolved from wife to daughter, and here has ended up as Fanny's.

127. But I must admit, this always makers me laugh:

Mrs Norris fetched breath, and went on again...

Though we are told that, "She rated her own claims to comfort as low even as Mrs Norris could", Fanny is old enough and sensible enough now not to pay too much attention to Mrs Norris's accusations; she's knows they're absurd.

128. It shows how his perception of her has altered, that he now thinks of her as a member of the family, not just a hanger-on, and treats her accordingly.

129. A "pretty income" means one in excess of the person's needs; "ducks and drakes" means to be reckless, or wasteful.

In this case, Henry (as Mary often does) is judging Edmund by himself, as playing ducks and drakes with his income is the last thing we would expect of Edmund. Henry is also telling Mary that even though Edmund will be a clergyman, he will have a decent income (albeit he will not be "rich", as Mary was earlier demanding).

130. The "something to do" is to become a clergyman"; the "something to suffer" is to lose her by doing it. Mary is still determined that she will not marry a clergyman - even one with seven hundred a year - but it's costing her a struggle and she cannot "think lightly" of the situation.

131. He does have options, but he doesn't want them, or feel himself fitted for them. (Studying law would be the most likely alternative at this point.) Mary doesn't understand that this is not just about the convenience of a living in his family's gift and a good income, but that Edmund actually has a vocation. In her world people only do what they do for what they can get out of it.

Thanks for this latest round of answers, Liz. Didn't have time to read today I'm afraid. I'll be back tomorrow.

No problem, Ilana - does anyone else have anything they'd like to add at this point?

The further I get into the book, the less I understand why people hate Fanny. Yes, she is meek and could stand to assert herself a bit more, in particular along the lines of giving Mrs. Norris a swift kick where the sun doesn't shine. Maybe I've been spending too much time around college students who think they are all precious snowflakes to whom the rules don't apply, but I find her deference and lack of arrogance quite refreshing.

I find Mary to be a very interesting character as well, especially in terms of the conflict between the selfish and unselfish parts of her nature.

Volume II, Chapters 6 & 7 / Chapters 24 & 25

Chapter 6 / Chapter 24

132. "But I cannot be satisfied without Fanny Price, without making a small hole in Fanny Price's heart."
Does he mean by that he wants to break her heart a little?

133. "with his hands stretched towards Fanny's head, "Do you know, I begin to like that queer fashion already"
Which fashion is he referring to?



Chapter 7 / Chapter 25

134. "The house must be turned to front the east instead of the north—the entrance and principal rooms, I mean, must be on that side, where the view is really very pretty; I am sure it may be done. And there must be your approach, through what is at present the garden..." etc

"and one of them is, that very little of your plan for Thornton Lacey will ever be put in practice. I must be satisfied with rather less ornament and beauty"
Obviously, Henry Crawford doesn't realize that the priorities of a clergyman are completely different from his own, much more frivolous ones!

135. "I never saw a house of the kind which had in itself so much the air of a gentleman's residence, so much the look of a something above a mere parsonage-house—above the expenditure of a few hundreds a year. It is not a scrambling collection of low single rooms, with as many roofs as windows; it is not cramped into the vulgar compactness of a square farmhouse: it is a solid, roomy, mansion-like looking house, such as one might suppose a respectable old country family had lived in from generation to generation, through two centuries at least, and were now spending from two to three thousand a year in."
Very confused by that entire passage! What is he saying, basically?

136. "Only think how useful he was at Sotherton!"
i.e.: not at all?!

137. "I do not exactly know the distance, but when you get back to Portsmouth, if it is not very far off, you ought to go over and pay your respects to them; and I could send a little parcel by you that I want to get conveyed to your cousins."
Basically, Mrs Norris has no idea at all of the distance and just wants to use him as her messenger boy, am I right?

138. "I would rather find him private secretary to the First Lord than anything else,"
What does William mean by this?

139. "he found his niece the object of attentions, or rather of professions, of a somewhat pointed character."
What does this mean?

140. "I repeat again," added Sir Thomas, "that Thornton Lacey is the only house in the neighbourhood in which I should not be happy to wait on Mr. Crawford as occupier."
Why is this?

141. "My uncle says nothing, but I am sure he will do everything in his power to get you made [a lieutenant]. He knows, as well as you do, of what consequence it is."
I imagine this involves a monetary transaction?

Volume II, Chapters 6 / Chapter 24

132. It means he wants her a little in love with him; the breaking will no doubt follow.

133. We don't know. William is talking about Fanny's hairstyle, but we are given no hint of what it looks like. "When I heard of such things being done in England," suggests a fairly recent, fairly radical shift in fashions.

Curls all over, but pulled back and up by combs or ribbons, was a popular style around this time. Tight ringlets over and around the ears were common. Elaborate head-dresses, feathers, etc. went out of style since, because of the war, they weren't easy to get hold of.

Volume II, Chapter 7 / Chapter 25

134. His priorities, and his income! Even though Henry knows what Edmund's income will be...

135. Basically he's saying that Thornton Lacey has the look of a gentleman's residence - the residence, of someone with inherited money who doesn't have to work - rather than of the kind of makeshift, piece-by-piece building he associates with clergymen. It has the look of something old, that was built to last.

136. Well, "useful" isn't the word I'd apply to his behaviour. :)

137. That's about it - she doesn't want to pay for a carrier.

138 & 141. William can't get a promotion because he knows / is related to no-one with influence, no-one who can bring him to the attention of those in charge. His career has stalled at the level of midshipman (an NCO position); he can't get promoted unless everyone ahead of him gets killed (!), or someone pulls some strings.

The "First Lord" he refers to is the First Lord of the Admiralty (in reality either Charles Yorke, or Lord Melville, according to what year we're actually in), who was the President of the Board of Lords Commissioners, who had command over the Royal Navy. William is wishing he knew someone influential like the First Lord's secretary. Fanny tries to console him by saying she is sure that Sir Thomas will try to help him.

139. "Professions" here means things that are professed, spoken. Sir Thomas has noticed that Henry is interested in Fanny, no so much because of how he behaves towards her, but how he speaks to her about his "attachment to the neighbourhood" and "perfecting the friendship and intimacy" between himself, his family, and the Mansfield Park family. Sir Thomas rightly* concludes that Henry is making indirect reference to his feelings for Fanny and his hopes for the future.

(*"Rightly" in that this is what Henry intends Fanny and anyone else listening to understand; not necessarily that he means what he says!)

140. Sir Thomas tells Henry that he will be very glad to have him for a neighbour, but he must find some other house than Thornton Lacey, which he (Sir Thomas) fully intends will be occupied by Edmund.

>26 rosalita:

I don't think quiet endurance is much appreciated as a quality in heroines, Julia, but in justice we must say of Fanny that she does the best she can with what she has. :)

People seem to want Fanny to "stand up for herself", though I've never seen a realistic suggestion of how she might do that. It's a demand that overlooks both her own upbringing and the way that society and the family operated at that time.

I think, too, that readers sometimes overlook the subtle humour with which Austen treats Fanny. She's much gentler with her than with her other heroines, but there is a teasing note to some of Fanny's ruminations, where she is clearly being led astray by her own wishes and/or inexperience.

This is too elaborate to be really appropriate for Fanny, but it gives an idea of women's evening fashions at the time, and how hair tended to be pulled up, but with curls left around the head and face:

>30 lyzard: People seem to want Fanny to "stand up for herself", though I've never seen a realistic suggestion of how she might do that.

Yes, this occurred to me, too. I love Heyer's sassy heroines as much as anyone but I've never felt that their behavior was particularly realistic to their time and circumstance. (Although maybe I'm wrong, in which case I'd be glad to know that.) Fanny seems like a perfect representative of her time and (at least as she has been portrayed so far) is one of the purest "good" people I've encountered in the limited Austen reading I've done. I'd kinda like to hang out with her. :-)

Heyer was writing historical romance / comedies, not realistic, contemporary fiction, so she's operating against a different set of rules; while few of her heroines are in a comparable situation to Fanny. (Hero Wantage, perhaps? Disregarded poor relation.) Also, standards and behaviour were very different in London, and within the higher classes of society. We're really looking at a different world in Austen's novels.

I take your point that it's hard for Fanny to stand up for herself. But she seems to think submissively as well as acting that way. There are a few hints that Fanny has strong opinions about Mrs Norris. I only wish that instead of responding to her by thinking "oh she is so horrible to me weep weep I am less than the dust under her shoe" we could see her thinking "dammit what a beyotch" (sounds like a Hark, A Vagrant! sketch) and actually valuing herself.

This is how she was upon arrival:

She was small of her age, with no glow of complexion, nor any other striking beauty; exceedingly timid and shy, and shrinking from notice...

...as unhappy as possible. Afraid of everybody, ashamed of herself, and longing for the home she had left, she knew not how to look up, and could scarcely speak to be heard, or without crying. Mrs. Norris had been talking to her the whole way from Northampton of her wonderful good fortune, and the extraordinary degree of gratitude and good behaviour which it ought to produce, and her consciousness of misery was therefore increased by the idea of its being a wicked thing for her not to be happy...

...and since then she's had eight straight years of being bullied, mocked and/or ignored; of being told she's worthless, "the lowest and the least". (Don't forget, Edmund isn't there most of the time to intervene.)

Fanny is sensitive enough to believe what she's been told of herself---as, mind you, do Maria and Julia. They've just been told very different things. :)

...at the same time, we can see how it was the abrupt shift from Portsmouth to Mansfield that did a lot of the damage. There are a few moments in the novel that give us a glimpse of Fanny in her early years, like this from Chapter 2:

...the brothers and sisters among whom she had always been important as playfellow, instructress, and nurse...

...but particularly this, from William, in Chapter 25:

"I should like to see you dance, and I'd dance with you if you would, for nobody would know who I was here, and I should like to be your partner once more. We used to jump about together many a time, did not we? when the hand-organ was in the street?"

>34 wandering_star: But she seems to think submissively as well as acting that way.

Great point. And what 21st century readers struggle with, I think.

I didn't have time for reading today. Tomorrow, should hopefully have time to do so, as am spending part of the day at the hospital, so will spend quite a bit of time in waiting rooms...

I think we call that "finding the silver lining", don't we? Take care!

Yes indeed! :-)

I'll preface this by saying I don't want to beat the subject to death so feel free to tell me to shut up anytime, but since Ilana isn't ready to move forward with the next chapters I thought I'd take one more stab at this topic.

>33 lyzard: Heyer was writing historical romance / comedies, not realistic, contemporary fiction, so she's operating against a different set of rules

Absolutely! The other thing that occurred to me but I didn't say is that Heyer was writing in the 20th century for an audience with much different expectations of proper female behavior, which had to be accommodated. Austen was writing in the midst of the time period she portrays and doesn't have that "luxury", if it can be called that.

At any rate, I dearly love both authors but have enjoyed this conversation of how their portrayals of the same/similar time period differ.

I've just gotten to Chapter 23 and have a question that I didn't see addressed. Is it ok to jump in a little late? If so . . .

When Fanny and Edmund are going to the dinner at Mrs. Grant's they talk a little about Fanny's dress. She is wearing "the new dress that my uncle was so good as to give me on my cousin's marriage". Then, when Edmund describes it, he says "a woman can never be too fine while she is all in white . . . I like these glossy spots".

This brings up a couple of questions for me, mainly regarding the color. I saw the picture you posted above and I'm wondering if that's what I should be picturing for this dress? I'm having a hard time imagining an all white dress with glossy spots being worn to a neighbor's dinner party. Do you think Edmund was correct that it was appropriate, or is she a bit overdressed for the occasion? And if she wore it to Maria's wedding, I'm guessing that the bride did not traditionally wear white at the time or it was at least not a faux pas for a guest to wear white too! Any comments about this dress?

>41 rosalita:

Perhaps, though she wrote across a forty year period over which experience and expectations themselves shifted enormously, without her characters necessarily shifting to meet new expectations. And we know she accessed letters from that period to get the speech patterns and particularly the slang right. But ultimately I guess it boils down to the fact that she was writing to entertain, not as social commentary or to make a moral point.

>42 japaul22:

Please do ask questions, Jen!

No, the dress above is an actual evening gown. Fanny's dress would be simpler, and as we see really a daytime dress being used in the evening as well - so she is if anything underdressed. Edmund is possibly trying to reassure her on that point, given that she has no "real" evening gown to wear.

Girls at this time wore only white or pastels, and their dresses were almost invariably made of muslin, but there were a wide variety of kinds, some with patterns or embroidery worked into the cloth. One variety had patterns picked out in small spangles, which may be what Fanny has.

We can thank Queen Victoria for what we now think of as a "traditional" wedding dress. Up to that point and in many cases for years afterwards, the bride simply wore a new dress, which she would later wear when she received her first visitors as a wife; though it would probably have a removable train, and there might also be a veil. The fashion for big, elaborate wedding dresses crept in over the second half of the 19th century.

By the way, the association of a white wedding dress with virginity was a 20th century invention. :)

And here is Queen Victoria's wedding dress - not hugely elaborate, actually, but obviously costly. And you can see how it would have influenced the styles of wedding dresses, going forward.

Victoria married in 1842, so we're thirty years beyond the fashions of Maria's wedding here:

Volume II, Chapters 8 & 9 / Chapters 26 & 27

Chapter 8 / Chapter 26

142. "You spoke of the balls at Northampton. Your cousins have occasionally attended them; but they would not altogether suit us now. The fatigue would be too much for your aunt. I believe we must not think of a Northampton ball. A dance at home would be more eligible"
Where would they have attended a ball in Northampton? Waited for an invitation to come to attend someone else's ball, basically?

143. "Ah, my dear Sir Thomas!" interrupted Mrs Norris, "I knew what was coming. I knew what you were going to say. If dear Julia were at home, or dearest Mrs Rushworth at Sotherton, to afford a reason, an occasion for such a thing, you would be tempted to give the young people a dance at Mansfield. I know you would. If they were at home to grace the ball, a ball you would have this very Christmas. Thank your uncle, William, thank your uncle!"
I love how Mrs Norris, with her condescending attitude, wants William to thank his uncle for his having even had the mere thought of having a ball for him to attend, while Sir Thomas is all the while fully intending to have one especially for him and his sister. Take that you mean old biddy!

144. "To engage her early for the two first dances was all the command of individual happiness which he felt in his power"
I think there is some special significance in getting a female partner to reserve the first two dances, but I forget all about those particular conventions...

145. "Fanny had not a word to say against its becomingness, and, excepting what remained of her scruples, was exceedingly pleased with an acquisition so very apropos. She would rather, perhaps, have been obliged to some other person."
Does she mean Edmund specifically here?

146. "she could not be convinced that he had not, for Miss Crawford, complaisant as a sister, was careless as a woman and a friend."
I don't understand this passage.



Chapter 9 / Chapter 27

147. "Fanny could not but admit the superior power of one pleasure over his own mind, though it might have its drawback."
Another passage I can't make out.

148. "But he was deceived in her: he gave her merits which she had not; her faults were what they had ever been, but he saw them no longer."
Are we to understand this is Fanny's opinion only, or is it the author's view as well? It certainly reflects mine!

149. "His nephew's introduction to Admiral Crawford might be of service. The Admiral, he believed, had interest."
I'm not sure I understand what 'had interest' means in this context.

150. "No such time as you allude to will ever come."
What does Edmund mean by this?

For those of you participating in TIOLI who are reading at a similar pace as I am, I've moved the book over to April challenge #2 (something to do with 'green') since I'll obviously not be finishing it before March 31st!

The April TIOLI thread is here: http://www.librarything.com/topic/189370

Volume II, Chapter 8 / Chapter 26

142. Possibly, but also there may have been public dances such as we saw in Pride And Prejudice.

143. :D

144. To dance with a woman for the first dances at a ball was effectively, and publicly, declaring your interest in her.

145. No, I think in this instance it just means that Fanny doesn't like Mary, and doesn't want to be obliged to her.

146. And it's important that we do, because this is a point that Austen returns to a number of times in her novels. She spells it out in Emma where, after Emma has been nasty in respect of Jane Fairfax, she later feels ashamed of herself and that she has "failed in the duty of woman by woman". Given how vulnerable girls were at this time, and how easily their reputations and prospects could be hurt (as we discussed at length during Pride And Prejudice, Austen clearly felt that there should be a kind of solidarity, a sisterhood, which prevented any woman from doing anything to hurt or in any way damage another.

Here, Austen is saying, Mary might be a good sister to her brother, but to her fellow women. We've already seen how unconcerned she was at Henry wreaking havoc with Maria and Julia; now she tricks Fanny into accepting the necklace which, Fanny suspects, is a disguised gift from Henry. Mary has done this to help Henry, not caring how Fanny feels about it.

Volume II, Chapter 9 / Chapter 27

147. Edmund has just said:

"I have no pleasure in the world superior to that of contributing to yours. No, I can safely say, I have no pleasure so complete, so unalloyed. It is without a drawback."

...but as soon as she starts to talk about the necklace, all Edmund can see is Mary's apparent kindness and the fact that he and she have had the same thought: dwelling on this is the "superior power of one pleasure"; the drawback of it, in Fanny's opinion, is that it makes him feel even more strongly about Mary.

148. I think this is Fanny's point of view (which is not to say that Austen disagrees with her), because it runs straight on from what is clearly Fanny's own feeling, that Mary does not deserve Edmund.

149. Influence. As we discussed in Chapter 25, William can't get promoted until he comes to the attention of someone with influence, "interest".

150. Fanny tells Edmund that he shouldn't criticise Mary to her, as there may come a time - i.e. when Edmund and Mary are married - when he will regret what he said. Edmund responds that, "No time such as you allude to will ever come" - Mary's behaviour has convinced him that she will never marry him.

>47 lyzard: 144: To dance with a woman for the first dances at a ball was effectively, and publicly, declaring your interest in her.

I did not know that. It sure makes sense though (oh poor Lizzie having to dance the first dances with Mr Collins. Cringe!)

Oh, yes! :)

There were conflicting rules at work here - for example, at a formal ball the eldest son of the house might be expected to dance with the highest ranked female guest; or if a girl was making her debut, her parents might arrange for a "suitable" first partner; but in ordinary circumstances it meant exactly what Edmund means by "securing" Mary. (The girl accepting did not necessarily imply that she was interested, because girls weren't supposed to say no except in exceptional circumstances; though it could.)

ETA: I should add that this was more the case at a private ball. At public balls, where you couldn't be sure beforehand who would be there or the male / female ratio, the behaviour patterns didn't always follow, or the implications might be different. In Pride And Prejudice, Mr Bingley dances first with Charlotte because she is the daughter of the ranking guest, Sir William Lucas; duty out of the way, he asks to be introduced to Jane, which is his way of saying he thinks she's the prettiest girl there. (Darcy not dancing at all is very improper of him.)

Were the public balls arranged on a commercial basis, ie you had to pay to attend? If not, how did it work?

(hope this isn't hijacking the thread!)

(Not at all!)

Public assemblies were held on a subscription basis. There were assembly rooms in many towns, where dances were organised by the local authorities, and the subscription fee was for entry and refreshments. There would often be a Master of Ceremonies who would keep an eye on behaviour and manage introductions. Almack's in London was a famous private assembly room (admission by invitation only, dancing only following approval by the patrons), while the Upper and Lower Rooms in Bath were perhaps the most famous public assemblies, with strict rules of dress and conduct. In provincial towns like Meryton (in Pride And Prejudice), you could get quite a socially mixed crowd, which would be why, or one reason, Mr Darcy and the Bingley ladies are so stand-offish. Groups of people could also hire assembly rooms, or the upper rooms of a public inn, for a dance if their own houses were too small or did not have ballrooms; we see that in Emma.

>51 wandering_star: That's a good question, and >52 lyzard:, thanks for the answer.

When I first started reading Austen (and before that seeing the films), I was confused by the balls and dances. But then I had it explained to me and it all made sense when I compared the assembly rooms to a discotheque.

>42 japaul22: I don't want to hijack things either, but for anyone who's interested, I've been posting photos and discussion of actual fabric samples from the early 19th century (from plates from Ackermann's Repository ) on my blog here: http://nineteenteen.blogspot.com/2014/12/acks-back-or-regency-fabrics-part-1.htm... and here: http://nineteenteen.blogspot.com/2015/01/regency-fabrics-part-2.html and here: http://nineteenteen.blogspot.com/2015/02/regency-fabrics-part-3.html

I finished Volume II this evening. I'll be back to post my questions either later tonight or during the day tomorrow.

As I said above, I've read the four final chapters of Volume II. I don't have many questions, but feel free to call an intermission Liz, in case other participants want to bring up issues I haven't thought of myself. I'll be reading a couple of chapters today and will be ready with more questions when you are!

Volume II, Chapters 10 to 13 / Chapters 28 to 31

Chapter 10 / Chapter 28

151. "Her happiness on this occasion was very much à-la-mortal, finely chequered."
I've never come across this expression before. Where does it come from (seems French, though unfamiliar to me) and what does it mean?

152. "Young, pretty, and gentle, however, she had no awkwardnesses that were not as good as graces"
What a strange expression! Please explain.

153. "Your brother will find my ideas of time and his own very different to-morrow."
Is he implying that William will probably be late?

154. "she had only to rise, and, with Mr. Crawford's very cordial adieus, pass quietly away; stopping at the entrance-door, like the Lady of Branxholm Hall, "one moment and no more," to view the happy scene"
Who is this Lady of Branxholm Hall being referred to here?



Chapter 11 / Chapter 29

155. "Fanny's disposition was such that she could never even think of her aunt Norris in the meagreness and cheerlessness of her own small house, without reproaching herself for some little want of attention to her when they had been last together"
I know we've mentioned this about her kind and submissive nature before, and I like and admire Fanny in many ways, and do my best to keep her in the context of the 19th century she lives and breathes in, but this passage is very difficult for me to swallow all the same. She may not be of a rebellious nature, but to actually feel she owes her mean and cruel aunt her little attentions instead of feeling any sort of revulsion for the woman in the depth of her soul just seems unnatural somehow, though I suppose this is meant to show what a beautiful, kind, forgiving, truly Christian nature Fanny has?

156. There is mention of a second breakfast; I guess this is because the first party had an 'early' breakfast after the ball, while others breakfasted later?

157. "This wish was levelled principally at Julia, who had just applied for permission to go to town with Maria; and as Sir Thomas thought it best for each daughter that the permission should be granted, Lady Bertram, though in her own good-nature she would not have prevented it, was lamenting the change it made in the prospect of Julia's return, which would otherwise have taken place about this time."
Was it typical that parents should allow their younger unmarried daughters to live with their older married ones at this time? Why would Sir Thomas think it best? Would this be another example of bad parenting? I have a sense, though don't know for sure, that Lady Bertram—though she doesn't want Julia back for the right reasons—should have insisted on it, but I await your feedback on this point with bated breath!



Chapter 12 / Chapter 30

158. "You will have a sweet little wife; all gratitude and devotion. Exactly what you deserve. What an amazing match for her!"
I find Mary Crawford's attitude interesting in this whole chapter, because it seems to reflect Mrs Norris's perfectly; somehow viewing Fanny as not quite worthy of so much luck, of so many riches, of so much love, etc. Once again, I think she shows her true colours here. Also interesting is that she thinks only of the match being good for Fanny in terms of the financial aspect; she knows perfectly well her brother isn't likely to be faithful or true to her in the long, or even short term, and she knows Fanny has a truly moral character, so I can't see why she would think Henry would be truly deserving of Fanny. I should say in fact this chapter angered me from beginning to end the first time I read it, and again when I revisited it this time.

159. "It was bad, very bad in me against such a creature; but I did not know her then; and she shall have no reason to lament the hour that first put it into my head. I will make her very happy, Mary; happier than she has ever yet been herself, or ever seen anybody else."
I can't see how someone with such a bad character thinks he could ever make someone such as Fanny happy. Of course, he is deluding himself, and Fanny herself has the sense to know this, thank goodness, but plenty of women fall for this ploy and live to regret it bitterly.



Chapter 13 / Chapter 31

160. "Did Admiral Crawford apply?"
What does she mean by this?

161. "I am very much obliged to you, my dear Miss Crawford, for your kind congratulations, as far as they relate to my dearest William. The rest of your note I know means nothing; but I am so unequal to anything of the sort, that I hope you will excuse my begging you to take no farther notice. I have seen too much of Mr. Crawford not to understand his manners; if he understood me as well, he would, I dare say, behave differently. I do not know what I write, but it would be a great favour of you never to mention the subject again. With thanks for the honour of your note, I remain, dear Miss Crawford, etc., etc."
It seems to me this note Fanny dashes off is unspeakably rude. I know she wants to make it very clear to Mary and her brother she won't marry Henry, but wasn't this sort of thing socially unacceptable at the time? I haven't read ahead and can't recall what the consequences of that note are at the moment, but it must provoke some kind of small furor, surely (I don't expect you to tell me either way, of course!)

Volume II, Chapter 10 / Chapter 28

151. It's French for "of the human kind" - meaning that human happiness is never quite perfect, it's always alloyed. In this case, while Fanny is happy that she will not suffer the embarrassment of not being asked to dance, she wishes it hadn't been Henry Crawford who asked.

152. It was felt to be more becoming if a young girl making her debut, as Fanny effectively is, was not immediately comfortable and self-confident in society. Fanny's shyness and uncertainty show the other guests that she is properly modest.

153. No, suggesting that William will find it difficult to tear himself away from Mansfield Park, whereas he, with nothing to hold him at the vicarage, will be punctual. (Perhaps with an accompanying suggestion that if he, Henry, were being called away from Fanny, he would find it difficult too.)

154. That is another quote from The Lay Of The Last Minstrel; Fanny is thinking in terms of Walter Scott again, as she did at Sotherton:

The Ladye forgot her purpose high
One moment and no more;
One moment gazed with a mother's eye,
As she paused at the arched door...

Volume II, Chapter 11 / Chapter 29

155. It's showing us that even Fanny Price can have a gap between her theory and her practice. At a safe distance from Mrs Norris she can see how depressing her circumstances are and why she is the way she is, and feel that she ought to show her more "attention"; but when she has the chance, she avoids Mrs Norris instead.

156. Yes. Breakfast would be delayed after this sort of big party, which often wouldn't break up until four or five in the morning (it's three when Fanny is sent to bed), but because the young men have to leave arrangements are made for them to breakfast earlier than the rest.

157. Yes, quite typical. As we discussed earlier, when the eldest daughter married she was expected to take some social responsibility for any younger sisters. It was also quite common for a younger sister to reside with her married sister as a sort of companion - it was taken for granted that one young woman would need the company of another, even on her honeymoon. (The subtext there being that in the absence of a love match, the newlyweds wouldn't want each other's undiluted company.)

In this case, Julia being with Maria gives her much better social opportunities than could have being at home, that is, chances to make a good marriage herself. Conversely, it is taken for granted (though tacitly) that Maria will not want to be alone with Mr Rushworth - which we see in in Sir Thomas's thought about what is best for both sisters. His would be the final word in any case, whatever Lady Bertram wanted.

Volume II, Chapter 12 / Chapter 30

158. We need to be clear in the first place that this is indeed an extraordinarily good match for someone in Fanny's situation - this is how it would be viewed by society at large, so there is nothing necessarily untoward in that reaction, at least on a theoretical level.

Beyond that, we know that Mary does think of marriage in terms of social and financial gain, so naturally she immediately puts this in terms of Fanny's material benefits.

But what we see repeatedly with Mary, and particularly in her interaction with Fanny, is an inability to grasp that others feel differently from herself - or perhaps she just doesn't think about it. She has no real understanding of Fanny or how her mind works, so she assumes that she will be dazzled by the prospect of marriage to a man with an estate and a fortune.

Mary has a kind of tunnel-vision when it comes to Henry - what he wants he must have. The fact that he wants Fanny is the end of the argument as far as she is concerned, so she is completely unprepared for Fanny's reaction.

159. Exactly how sincere Henry is up for debate. He may be sincere - or he may think he is sincere - or he may be enjoying playing at being the devoted lover.

It was a platitude at the time that "a reformed rake makes the best husband" and a girl would be considered unrealistic or even ridiculous if she held a man's past bad behaviour towards women against him; she was supposed to be flattered that he was prepared to reform for her (which is exactly what Henry is saying he is going to do for Fanny). But of course in practice, a man who had a habit of casual attitudes towards women did not always find it easy to change his behaviour, good resolutions notwithstanding.

Volume II, Chapter 13 / Chapter 31

160. Did Admiral Crawford take steps to secure William's promotion? - which he did, at Henry's request.

161. I don't know if it's rude; it's certainly blunt, which in itself is a measure of how upset Fanny is - if she'd stopped and thought about it, she never would have written such a note.

Fanny does not believe that Henry is serious - and she does not believe that Mary thinks he is either - she thinks they're simply amusing themselves at her expense. Her note boils down to, "I know he's only playing games - you know he's only playing games - let's not kid each other." It makes her angry that, as she perceives it, Mary is making fun of her with her pretence of believing in Henry's sincerity.

But is Fanny doing both of them, or one of them, an injustice? As with 159. above, we are left with the tantalising question of exactly how sincere Henry is - what do people think?

>60 lyzard: 'we are left with the tantalising question of exactly how sincere Henry is - what do people think?'

That's a question I debate every time I read this book :-) I think he thinks he's sincere but I also think Fanny is justified in doubting his sincerity given his earlier behaviour towards Maria and Julia.

>60 lyzard: I can see an argument for any of the reactions to Henry, but I tend to think that he is sincerely playing the new role of devoted lover to a woman he views as honorable, sweet, and who needs him. I think this role is on the subconscious level. I don't think he's intending to hurt Fanny, but I think she is right to not trust him. He strikes me as the kind of person who will always try out a persona, tire of it, and move on to something else. While he's in the moment, he will play his role fully, but it won't last forever. She would inevitably be hurt when he tired of being the devoted, monogamous lover.

>43 lyzard: and >54 Marissa_Doyle: thank you for the dress information!

>62 japaul22: That's an excellent assessment of Henry. He is the perfect actor. So in that sense, he is "earnest" in his role, so long as he continues to play it, and until he finds a more interesting character to play.

>61 souloftherose: >62 japaul22: >63 kac522: I agree with all your combined comments, as they take everything we've learned about Henry until now into account. He lives too much in the moment not to be sincere about his current feelings for Fanny, but this state of affairs would not last if she was to make the fatal mistake of trusting him either. She's definitely made the right choice in trusting her own instincts above all!

japaul in >62 japaul22: says it well for me. I do think Henry is sincere, but he's trying on another role that won't last. I've read that some believe Fanny would have improved him if they married, and helped him straighten out, but I agree that she's right not to trust him. There's little reason to believe he won't return to his old ways when the role wears out its charm for him.

>65 jnwelch: There's little reason to believe he won't return to his old ways when the role wears out its charm for him.

I'm in completed agreement there.

I've read the first two chapters of Volume III and only have a couple of comments and one question so far.

Volume III, Chapters 1 & 2 / Chapters 32 & 33

Chapter 1 / Chapter 32

162. "She would not, could not believe, that Mr Crawford's affection for her could distress him long; his mind was not of that sort. London would soon bring its cure. In London he would soon learn to wonder at his infatuation, and be thankful for the right reason in her which had saved him from its evil consequences.
Just what we've been talking about recently. Fanny doesn't believe his infatuation is likely to last long either.



Chapter 2 / Chapter 33

163. "He was now the Mr Crawford who was addressing herself with ardent, disinterested love; whose feelings were apparently become all that was honourable and upright, whose views of happiness were all fixed on a marriage of attachment; who was pouring out his sense of her merits, describing and describing again his affection, proving as far as words could prove it, and in the language, tone, and spirit of a man of talent too, that he sought her for her gentleness and her goodness; and to complete the whole, he was now the Mr Crawford who had procured William's promotion!
Here was a change, and here were claims which could not but operate! She might have disdained him in all the dignity of angry virtue, in the grounds of Sotherton, or the theatre at Mansfield Park; but he approached her now with rights that demanded different treatment. She must be courteous, and she must be compassionate. She must have a sensation of being honoured, and whether thinking of herself or her brother, she must have a strong feeling of gratitude. The effect of the whole was a manner so pitying and agitated, and words intermingled with her refusal so expressive of obligation and concern, that to a temper of vanity and hope like Crawford's, the truth, or at least the strength of her indifference, might well be questionable
What I understand from this long passage is that there has been a change in Henry Crawford from the frivolous young man Fanny met at the beginning to the lover who is courting her and asking for her hand now and that though she is refusing him, she isn't doing so quite as convincingly as she thinks she is. Is that right?

164. "Her uncle's kind expressions, however, and forbearing manner, were sensibly felt; and when she considered how much of the truth was unknown to him, she believed she had no right to wonder at the line of conduct he pursued. He, who had married a daughter to Mr Rushworth: romantic delicacy was certainly not to be expected from him."
I don't know whether Sir Thomas has any romantic delicacy or not, but Fanny is also missing some vital facts here, as she certainly doesn't know her uncle offered Maria to get her out of her engagement to Rushworth, and if she knew, she would probably have a different opinion of him at this juncture.

Volume III, Chapter 1 / Chapter 32

162. No, and not surprisingly given she saw at close quarters how convincingly he played the lover with Julia and in particular Maria, and how little it actually meant. It is interesting, though, that her flat disbelief extends past his proposal of marriage and his speaking to Sir Thomas, which together represent a line that even the most hardened game-players usually feared to tread.

Volume III, Chapter 2 / Chapter 33

163. I think we are to understand that Fanny is struggling to interpret his behaviour otherwise than having been brought about by a change in him - even she is having difficulty believing that this is all play-acting. And while her feelings towards him do not really change, the thought that he may be sincere after all makes her feel sorry for him, and a little guilty, which in turn softens her manner towards him to a point that means, even though she is still saying "No", he takes it as encouragement.

(Of course, his ego is such that he takes almost everything as encouragement...)

164. She probably would---but on the other hand, we who have been privy to Sir Thomas's interactions with both Maria and Fanny might perceive that holds Miss Bertram of Mansfield Park and Fanny Price of Portsmouth to different standards here: only one of them has right of refusal. :)

There are some fascinating quotes through Chapters 32 and 33, which I thought we might take a closer look at:

Chapter 32

    "Oh! no, sir, I cannot, indeed I cannot go down to him. Mr Crawford ought to know—he must know that: I told him enough yesterday to convince him; he spoke to me on this subject yesterday, and I told him without disguise that it was very disagreeable to me, and quite out of my power to return his good opinion."
    "I do not catch your meaning," said Sir Thomas, sitting down again. "Out of your power to return his good opinion? What is all this? I know he spoke to you yesterday, and (as far as I understand) received as much encouragement to proceed as a well-judging young woman could permit herself to give."

...

    "Am I to understand," said Sir Thomas, after a few moments' silence, "that you mean to refuse Mr. Crawford?"
    "Yes, sir."
    "Refuse him?"
    "Yes, sir."
    "Refuse Mr Crawford!..."

...

"For I had, Fanny, as I think my behaviour must have shewn, formed a very favourable opinion of you from the period of my return to England. I had thought you peculiarly free from wilfulness of temper, self-conceit, and every tendency to that independence of spirit which prevails so much in modern days, even in young women, and which in young women is offensive and disgusting beyond all common offence. But you have now shewn me that you can be wilful and perverse..."

...

    "But, Fanny, if your heart can acquit you of ingratitude—"
    He ceased. Fanny was by this time crying so bitterly that, angry as he was, he would not press that article farther. Her heart was almost broke by such a picture of what she appeared to him; by such accusations, so heavy, so multiplied, so rising in dreadful gradation! Self-willed, obstinate, selfish, and ungrateful. He thought her all this...

Chapter 33

    Love such as his, in a man like himself, must with perseverance secure a return, and at no great distance; and he had so much delight in the idea of obliging her to love him in a very short time, that her not loving him now was scarcely regretted. A little difficulty to be overcome was no evil to Henry Crawford. He rather derived spirits from it. He had been apt to gain hearts too easily. His situation was new and animating.
    To Fanny, however, who had known too much opposition all her life to find any charm in it, all this was unintelligible...

...

    It was with reluctance that he suffered her to go; but there was no look of despair in parting to belie his words, or give her hopes of his being less unreasonable than he professed himself.
    Now she was angry. Some resentment did arise at a perseverance so selfish and ungenerous. Here was again a want of delicacy and regard for others which had formerly so struck and disgusted her. Here was again a something of the same Mr Crawford whom she had so reprobated before. How evidently was there a gross want of feeling and humanity where his own pleasure was concerned; and alas! how always known no principle to supply as a duty what the heart was deficient in! Had her own affections been as free as perhaps they ought to have been, he never could have engaged them...

...

Sir Thomas found himself once more obliged to mention the subject to his niece, to prepare her briefly for its being imparted to her aunts; a measure which he would still have avoided, if possible, but which became necessary from the totally opposite feelings of Mr Crawford as to any secrecy of proceeding. He had no idea of concealment. It was all known at the Parsonage, where he loved to talk over the future with both his sisters, and it would be rather gratifying to him to have enlightened witnesses of the progress of his success...

...

    "My dear aunt, you cannot wish me to do differently from what I have done, I am sure. You cannot wish me to marry; for you would miss me, should not you? Yes, I am sure you would miss me too much for that."
    "No, my dear, I should not think of missing you, when such an offer as this comes in your way. I could do very well without you, if you were married to a man of such good estate as Mr Crawford. And you must be aware, Fanny, that it is every young woman's duty to accept such a very unexceptionable offer as this."
    This was almost the only rule of conduct, the only piece of advice, which Fanny had ever received from her aunt in the course of eight years and a half. It silenced her...

>68 lyzard: She probably would---but on the other hand, we who have been privy to Sir Thomas's interactions with both Maria and Fanny might perceive that holds Miss Bertram of Mansfield Park and Fanny Price of Portsmouth to different standards here: only one of them has right of refusal. :)

I have to defend Sir Thomas here. He comes to Maria and Fanny with different purposes. He has found Mr. Rushworth dull and has observed Maria's coldness toward him, so he offers Maria an "out." Sir Thomas comes to Fanny thoroughly charmed by Henry, has observed Henry's attentions to Fanny, and Henry's efforts on behalf of William. Sir Thomas has no reason to think anything ill of Henry, only good. So it's understandable why he is completely confused by Fanny's response. She's probably never opposed him about anything in her life.

I've always found these passages with Sir Thomas the most moving of the book, and for me it's the heart of what the book is about. Both Fanny and Sir Thomas have come to have warmer feelings for each other lately, and yet they are in complete disagreement here. And it's clear each is upset with the other. Sir Thomas is doing the "right" thing in his own mind for his niece, based on his values and Fanny's position in society. Fanny is firmly standing up for her own happiness.

And even more poignant is how Sir Thomas still makes sure there is a fire in her room, that she go for a walk to clear her head, how he defends Fanny in front of Mrs. Norris. And Fanny is tortured that she is ungrateful to the man who has been her benefactor all these years. It is such a classic confrontation between what is expected by others (and society) vs. living by one's own principles, and the internal struggles it creates.

>70 kac522: Very well said! I agree with all of that analysis, and I found those scenes quite powerful as well.

>70 kac522:

>70 kac522: Yes, very well said. What is interesting also is that here is meek, submissive Fanny standing up for herself for the first time, no wonder Sir Thomas is utterly bewildered!

Quite right about the clash between societal expectations and personal feelings / principles, which is a point Austen returned to repeatedly in her novels.

I agree about the power of these scenes (and Sir Thomas having the fire lit anyway is a killer), but even so I find his attack on Fanny very disturbing. Confused and even shocked I can understand, but to immediately accuse her of being "wilful", "perverse" and "ungrateful", to tell her that her behaviour is "offensive and disgusting", is not treating her as she has earned the right to be treated. Granted we don't know what Henry has been telling Sir Thomas (except that he considers he has received "encouragement"), and he probably wouldn't understand Fanny even if she could explain herself*, but to turn like this on a girl who has barely put a foot wrong in eight and a half years' residence under his roof is unacceptable. And if nothing else, he should appreciate that Fanny has known Henry a lot longer than he has. Also this comes in the immediate wake of the theatricals debacle, with Edmund stressing that only Fanny has behaved correctly.

(*And of course, Fanny cannot properly explain herself except by betraying Maria, which she won't do.)

>74 lyzard: I'd say his treatment of Fanny here is an indication that he still has mixed feelings about her. On the one hand he's deeply appreciative of the young woman she has blossomed into, but on the other, he must still perceive her as the poor relation he's been putting up at his own expense, whom he feels ought to be grateful for this amazing opportunity that is suddenly offered to her. And knowing that he would have gladly have accepted Henry as a son-in law, had he asked to marry Julia instead, must frustrate him all the more, since of course he doesn't know anything about the more perverse aspects of Henry's personality which Fanny can't bring herself to reveal to him without betraying both sisters.

That being said, I'll be back with comments and questions tomorrow as haven't had time to further my reading today.

>75 Smiler69: Agreed...he's reverted back to his treatment of her when she first came to Mansfield. Remember, he's spent a lot of time with Mrs. Norris. Also, he's being more of a moralizing and strict "parent" than he is with his own children...perhaps to make up for his lack of discipline with them? Or perhaps feels more obligation to lecture a young person who is his dependent and should know her place, and who is not a child of privilege. He talks angrily and sharply, but his subsequent actions are more restrained and almost with understanding. Certainly no worse than the strident Mrs. Bennet, who will never speak to her daughter Elizabeth again after she refuses Mr. Collins. We laugh at Mrs. Bennet, but her words are just as sharp, just not as lengthy. Plus Elizabeth has her father on her side; Fanny has no one to temper the blow, for herself and for us as readers.

I managed to read up to chapter 6 (37) today, but not sure I'll have time to post my questions/comments before the end of the day. I'll try, but otherwise will do so tomorrow during the day.

I just spent all the time I'd set aside for posting my questions here (and then some) with a couple of utilities providers to get my monthly bills lowered, now that electricity bill has gone sky-high thanks to a record-breaking cold winter to pay for as far as heating bills. Mission accomplished as far as that goes, but I'll have to find some other time, hopefully later today to do my homework here. Sorry about that (but I'm feeling much lighter, I must admit!)

Ok, here goes, sorry for the long delay!

Volume III, Chapters 3 to 6 / Chapters 34 & 37

Chapter 3 / Chapter 34

165. "He was, in fact, entirely on his father's side of the question. His surprise was not so great as his father's at her refusing Crawford, because, so far from supposing her to consider him with anything like a preference, he had always believed it to be rather the reverse, and could imagine her to be taken perfectly unprepared, but Sir Thomas could not regard the connexion as more desirable than he did."
I was very surprised when I read this. Of course as I kept reading it became clear that Edmund obviously couldn't have been aware of what had been going on during the play, but could he possibly have missed all the inappropriate flirting and game-playing that was occurring between Henry and his two sisters?

166. "he was almost ready to wonder at his friend's perseverance"
It hadn't occurred to me till then to view Henry as Edmund's friend. Are we really to consider them as friends then?

167. Why do you think JA chose Henry the VIIIth as a Shakespeare play for Henry to read from?

168. "No doubt one is familiar with Shakespeare in a degree," said Edmund, "from one's earliest years. His celebrated passages are quoted by everybody; they are in half the books we open, and we all talk Shakespeare, use his similes, and describe with his descriptions"
This was true in Austen's time and still holds true 300 years later. But I hardly think the second part, about Henry's amazing talent at reading Shakespeare would be enough to sustain a marriage!

169. "Edmund saw it all, and saw Fanny so determined not to see it, as to make it clear that the voice was enough to convey the full meaning of the protestation"
Please explain.

170. "A thoroughly good sermon, thoroughly well delivered, is a capital gratification. I can never hear such a one without the greatest admiration and respect, and more than half a mind to take orders and preach myself."
Henry might believe himself truly in love with Fanny and have the best intentions in the world, but at this point I think he's really lost himself and hardly realises what he's saying—he's basically saying he wants to try on different personas, much as an actor would, as he seems to confirm as the conversation progresses ("And I do not know that I should be fond of preaching often; now and then, perhaps once or twice in the spring...")



Chapter 4 / Chapter 35

171. "My dear Fanny," replied Edmund, scarcely hearing her to the end, "let us not, any of us, be judged by what we appeared at that period of general folly. The time of the play is a time which I hate to recollect. Maria was wrong, Crawford was wrong, we were all wrong together; but none so wrong as myself. Compared with me, all the rest were blameless. I was playing the fool with my eyes open."
On one hand, I can understand what Edmund is saying; he's casting a strong moral judgment on himself and taking all the blame for having made the wrong choice, but I can't understand all the same why he'd adopt his father's attitude of sweeping everyone else's bad behaviour under the rug and pretending nothing had happened!? This seems to be a critical exchange between Fanny and Edmund.



Chapter 5 / Chapter 36

172. "She took three days to consider of his proposals, and during those three days asked the advice of everybody connected with her whose opinion was worth having, and especially applied to my late dear aunt, whose knowledge of the world made her judgment very generally and deservedly looked up to by all the young people of her acquaintance, and she was decidedly in favour of Mr. Fraser. This seems as if nothing were a security for matrimonial comfort."
This is a complicated bit of monologue. On the one hand, Mary wants to convince Fanny she must accept her brother's marriage proposal, and on the other she is saying there is no guarantee any marriage will work out. It seems Mary hasn't got the whole thing quite worked out for herself yet!



Chapter 6 / Chapter 37

173. "his prime motive in sending her away had very little to do with the propriety of her seeing her parents again, and nothing at all with any idea of making her happy. He certainly wished her to go willingly, but he as certainly wished her to be heartily sick of home before her visit ended; and that a little abstinence from the elegancies and luxuries of Mansfield Park would bring her mind into a sober state, and incline her to a juster estimate of the value of that home of greater permanence, and equal comfort, of which she had the offer."
Sir Thomas certainly has what feminists of any age would consider to be patronising paternalistic pretensions. I find it difficult not to find his motives offensive, even though he thinks his intentions are well-meaning, and I find it all the more surprising that Edmund goes along with his thinking all along too!

174. "William and Fanny were horror-struck at the idea."
I can only imagine how one minute, thinking they were to enjoy a brother-and-sister joyous ride to Portsmouth together, and the next moment—EEEEEKKKKKK!!!! being stuck with Mrs Norris in the carriage all the way!—would have been a terrifying prospect all of the sudden! But thank goodness, all's well that ends well on that score at least! :-)

Volume III, Chapter 3 / Chapter 34

165. The "rehearsing" didn't start until after the play was cast, and it wasn't cast until Edmund backed down. Beyond that point, I would think, he was so taken up with, one one hand, his own behaviour, and on the other the prospect of acting opposite Mary and, in effect, speaking of his love for her via the dialogue of the play, that he was not really paying attention to what else was going on.

Fanny, as the one outsider in addition to her usual habit of watchfulness, was in a position to see everything.

166. In the sense of two young men who have spent quite a lot of time socialising together, yes; not in the sense that in a crowd, these two would have picked each other out to be friends. But also, Edmund has for some time been thinking of Henry as his potential brother-in-law, which would influence his attitude towards him.

167. It has been suggested that Austen picked that play because it is about another Henry who liked a high turnover of women. :D

168. It is true that they share a "taste" here, but the rest is really about how eager the others are to convince themselves that Henry and Fanny have something in common.

And Edmund, of course, is trying to find evidence that two very unlike people can be happy together. Pretty much everything he says to Fanny in this section should be interpreted through the prism of his own thoughts with respect to himself and Mary.

169. "No, no, that will never be. Your ladyship is quite mistaken. No theatre at Everingham! Oh no!" says Henry, looking at Fanny. Austen then provides the reader with an interpretation of his remark and his look - "That lady will never allow a theatre at Everingham." Fanny is refusing to look at Henry and gives no external sign she understands him, but Edmund sees from her attutude that she has understood him, just from the meaningful tone of voice he uses.

170. Oh, yes! - and particularly that last remark, which Henry finally badgers Fanny into responding to: "Perhaps, sir, I thought it was a pity you did not always know yourself as well as you seemed to do at that moment."

Henry has simply provided Fanny with more evidence of his tendency to role-play, as well as his lightness of attitude towards religion, since he sees preaching a sermon as a kind of acting, a chance to perform for an audience, not as a serious duty.

Volume III, Chapter 4 / Chapter 35

171. It's critical because it shows Fanny that she is completely alone in the battle she has to fight and has no-one else she can depend on for support.

Edmund is the only person to whom Fanny can bring herself to speak of what was going on between Henry and Maria, but he's not listening to her - ...replied Edmund, scarcely hearing her to the end. As soon as she mentions the play he becomes caught up again in his own conduct and his interaction with Mary and can't see or feel anything beyond that. Fanny tries to talk about Henry, he responds by taking about himself. In that state of mind he's no help to her at all. He's not so much looking the other way, as Sir Thomas tends to, as unable to see past his own situation.

There are a few other points in Chapter 35 we should consider before moving on.

This sell-out of his sisters from Edmund I find particularly worrying:

"And, Fanny, though I hope I do justice to my sisters' good qualities, I think it very possible that they might, one or both, be more desirous of being admired by Crawford, and might shew that desire rather more unguardedly than was perfectly prudent. I can remember that they were evidently fond of his society; and with such encouragement, a man like Crawford, lively, and it may be, a little unthinking, might be led on to—there could be nothing very striking, because it is clear that he had no pretensions: his heart was reserved for you..."

This is how he interprets those "indefatigable rehearsers", Henry and Maria?---"There could be nothing very striking---"

He can't seriously think he is recommending Henry to Fanny by telling her his behaviour towards Maria and Julia meant nothing, can he? Why DO men always think that telling a woman "It didn't mean anything" will make a situation better, not worse!? :D

On the other hand, we can only admire Fanny's dogged efforts to be sure that Edmund and Mary were never alone together:

    "Mrs Grant laughed at her for her rapidity."
    "Was Mrs. Grant in the room, then?"

...

    "And I observed that she always spoke of you as 'Fanny,' which she was never used to do; and it had a sound of most sisterly cordiality."
    "And Mrs Grant, did she say—did she speak; was she there all the time?"

Volume III, Chapter 5 / Chapter 36

172. Mary is doing exactly what Edmund was doing earlier, and filtering everything through her own situation. She isn't really encouraging Fanny to marry Henry, since she pretty much takes it for granted that will happen - she tells Fanny they are destined to be sisters. Rather, she's reflecting on her owm position and wondering whether she can give up everything she has always considered "essential" to marital happiness, i.e. money and a house in London, for Edmund's sake. Thus she dwells on the unhappiness of Mrs Fraser, who married on exactly that basis and has been miserable.

In light of your question in 166., in Chapter 4, we might take a closer look here at Mary Crawford's idea of "friedship", and conversely how Fanny views having Mary thrust upon her as "a friend":

Chapter 36

The promised visit from "her friend," as Edmund called Miss Crawford, was a formidable threat to Fanny, and she lived in continual terror of it...

...

    Fanny roused herself, and replying only in part, said, "But you are only going from one set of friends to another. You are going to a very particular friend."
    "Yes, very true. Mrs Fraser has been my intimate friend for years. But I have not the least inclination to go near her... And when I have done with her I must go to her sister, Lady Stornaway, because she was rather my most particular friend of the two, but I have not cared much for her these three years."
    After this speech the two girls sat many minutes silent, each thoughtful: Fanny meditating on the different sorts of friendship in the world...

Volume III, Chapter 6 / Chapter 37

173. Edmund, I think, is not seeing past Fanny visiting her family; he certainly doesn't regard it as a "lesson" or a "punishment", as Sir Thomas very evidently regards it.

In that respect, we should put this passage in context of an earlier one:

Chapter 33

Sir Thomas resolved to abstain from all farther importunity with his niece, and to shew no open interference. Upon her disposition he believed kindness might be the best way of working. Entreaty should be from one quarter only. The forbearance of her family on a point, respecting which she could be in no doubt of their wishes, might be their surest means of forwarding it...

An attitude which lasts precisely as long as it takes Sir Thomas to realise that Fanny hasn't budged an inch; so suddenly we switch to:

Chapter 36

His prime motive in sending her away had very little to do with the propriety of her seeing her parents again, and nothing at all with any idea of making her happy. He certainly wished her to go willingly, but he as certainly wished her to be heartily sick of home before her visit ended; and that a little abstinence from the elegancies and luxuries of Mansfield Park would bring her mind into a sober state, and incline her to a juster estimate of the value of that home of greater permanence, and equal comfort, of which she had the offer."

While this, in turn, should be read in context of another of Sir Thomas's earlier thoughts:

Chapter 35

Sir Thomas was most cordially anxious for the perfection of Mr Crawford's character in that point. He wished him to be a model of constancy; and fancied the best means of effecting it would be by not trying him too long...

Sigh...

174. And particularly in the wake of poor Fanny having her breakfast with William ruined by having Henry Crawford intruding!

167. It has been suggested that Austen picked that play because it is about another Henry who liked a high turnover of women.

Thanks for confirming that. ;-)

>81 lyzard: As soon as she mentions the play he becomes caught up again in his own conduct and his interaction with Mary and can't see or feel anything beyond that.

Your comment is especially interesting in view of what I've been reading in The Real Jane Austen: A Life in Small Things by Paula Byrne. I think you've probably brought this up before in other JA tutorials, but Byrne makes the point, especially when she talks about Austen's literary influences, that she was interested in creating realistic and flawed characters that were neither wholly good nor wholly bad, and this is especially apparent with Edmund in this example; one could wonder why, as her love interest and a clergyman he would be so blind to Mary's imperfections otherwise. It seems that Byrne is quite a fan of Mansfield Park as well, so it is quite a timely read, as she quotes from the novel quite extensively.

>82 lyzard: Why DO men always think that telling a woman "It didn't mean anything" will make a situation better, not worse!?

Things don't change much over time, do they?

>83 lyzard:
172. Mary is doing exactly what Edmund was doing earlier, and filtering everything through her own situation... Rather, she's reflecting on her own position and wondering whether she can give up everything she has always considered "essential" to marital happiness, i.e. money and a house in London, for Edmund's sake.

I should have thought about that as I was reading that passage. I'll actually go back and read it again with that in mind.

>84 lyzard: After this speech the two girls sat many minutes silent, each thoughtful: Fanny meditating on the different sorts of friendship in the world...

Yes, this passage does tend to make one pause and reflect on the different types of friendships, doesn't it?

Volume III, Chapter 7 / Chapter 38

175. "and to find herself forced into a purpose of that kind, compelled into a correspondence which was bringing her the addresses of the man she did not love, and obliging her to administer to the adverse passion of the man she did, was cruelly mortifying"
I can only imagine! Really, Mary Crawford can only have been a very selfish friend! But then we've learned a lot about the kind of friend she is in chapter 4...

176. "The moment they stopped, a trollopy-looking maidservant, seemingly in waiting for them at the door, stepped forward"
Does this mean she looked vulgar, whorish?

177. "and in her mother's arms, who met her there with looks of true kindness, and with features which Fanny loved the more, because they brought her aunt Bertram's before her"
I found this passage almost shocking, because it shows how much Fanny has become her aunt Bertram's daughter, and her own mother now almost a stranger to her, for Fanny to think that way. Though I guess it would be natural after all that time, with Fanny having left the family home at such a young age. This is just the sort of thing Sir Thomas was no doubt counting on.

178. "I could not tell whether you would be for some meat, or only a dish of tea, after your journey, or else I would have got something ready."
Does Mrs Price really mean this, or is this a way for her to cut back on meat for economy's sake?

179. "We were better off in our last house."
I can't help but think there is a world of things unsaid behind this statement.

180. "I wish we could get the bell mended; but Betsey is a very handy little messenger.""
As with the previous two statements, I sense this is a allusion to the family's extreme poverty and bad household management. Could it have represented a large expense to get a bell mended or replaced?

181. "and there she lays at Spithead, and anybody in England would take her for an eight-and-twenty. I was upon the platform two hours this afternoon looking at her. She lays close to the Endymion, between her and the Cleopatra, just to the eastward of the sheer hulk."
What and/or where was Spithead?
What is an 'eight-and-twenty'?
Are the Endymion and the Cleopatra famous ships?
What does Mr Price do for a living, if anything? I ask because he apparently has two free hours in the afternoon to stare at ships, so can't be very busy...

>86 Smiler69:

I get a little frustrated when people criticise the characters of Mansfield Park from a false perspective---"Edmund and Fanny are supposed to be so perfect, and yet---" Of course they're not supposed to be perfect at all. Edmund is as blind as any other young man in the middle of his first serious love affair, and Fanny, though she tries to do what is right, nevertheless experiences fits of jealousy, resentment and self-pity.

Volume III, Chapter 7 / Chapter 38

175. But we need to do Mary justice and recognise that in no way is she trying to hurt Fanny. She doesn't begin to understand how Fanny thinks and feels, and least of all how she feels about Edmund; and while she certainly has what Henry wants at the top of her priority list, she does genuinely think that Fanny must really want such a marriage and will be happy in it. Mary has a rare talent for hitting Fanny on her most painful and vulnerable points, but none of it is intentional.

176. Dirty, untidy, unkempt; not "trollopy" in the sense of being like a trollop, a prostitute.

177. Fanny has spent about half of her life in each place, so it is natural that each opposing set of affections and impressions would be equally strong. As far as we know she has been in touch with no member of her family but William for the past nine years.

That moment also echoes Fanny's arrival at Mansfield Park, when Sir Thomas frightened her too much for her to realise he was trying to be kind, but she was drawn to Lady Bertram---presumably also because of the resemblance.

178. It means she hasn't bothered to really think the matter through and take action; easier to leave it hanging and excuse her inaction on a score of not knowing what Fanny would prefer.

179. Chiefly it suggests that as the family grows older money is getting tighter and tighter and they keep having to shift to cheaper accommodations.

180. Bad management on top of poverty. Things are certainly difficult but they don't have to be as disorganised and dirty as they are. It isn't the cost of getting the bell fixed so much as the need for definitive action.

181. Spithead is a stretch of water on the Solent, the strait which runs between Portsmouth and the Isle of Wight. It was a very important anchorage site for the British Navy, and where royal reviews of the navy were traditionally held.

Warships at the time were ranked according to how many movable cannons they carried; an "eight-and-twenty" was one of the smaller frigates. However, the point being made here is that the Thrush is a new, modern sloop, which is better designed and more spacious than the older ships, so that it may be mistaken for a frigate.

(A frigate was a warship built for manoeuvrability, a sloop, or sloop-of-war, was a smaller ship with a single gun deck.)

The Endymion and the Cleopatra were famous in the Austen family, anyway! This is a classic Jane-ite in-joke: most of the ships she mentions in Mansfield Park were those on which the members of her family served at different times. Her brother Francis (who, remember, was once assigned to intercepting illegal slave-traders) served on the Canopus and the Elephant, while her brother Charles served on the Endymion and the Cleopatra. The Thrush was also a real ship, but not one graced by an Austen.

Mr Price has been retired from service on a disability pension - probably "half pay" - which is all the family have to live on. (Chapter 1: A large and still increasing family, an husband disabled for active service, but not the less equal to company and good liquor, and a very small income to supply their wants, made her eager to regain the friends she had so carelessly sacrificed...)

>89 lyzard: I'd forgotten about Mr Price's disability pension—thanks for reminding me.

***

Volume III, Chapters 8 to 11 / Chapters 39 to 42


Chapter 8 / Chapter 39

182. "She might scruple to make use of the words, but she must and did feel that her mother was a partial, ill-judging parent, a dawdle, a slattern, who neither taught nor restrained her children, whose house was the scene of mismanagement and discomfort from beginning to end, and who had no talent, no conversation, no affection towards herself; no curiosity to know her better, no desire of her friendship, and no inclination for her company that could lessen her sense of such feelings."
Oh dear! It looks like Fanny's had a much better life of it at Mansfield, even throwing in the bullying Mrs Norris after all! Poor Mrs Price must have been completely swallowed up by her life of poverty, her drunken and coarse husband and too many children to handle. Add to that a weak personality, and no wonder she's done in, poor thing.

183. "In a review of the two houses, as they appeared to her before the end of a week, Fanny was tempted to apply to them Dr Johnson's celebrated judgment as to matrimony and celibacy, and say, that though Mansfield Park might have some pains, Portsmouth could have no pleasures."
Please DO enlighten us at to 'Dr Johnson's celebrated judgment as to matrimony and celibacy'! :-)



Chapter 9 / Chapter 40

184. "Shall I tell you how Mrs. Rushworth looked when your name was mentioned? I did not use to think her wanting in self-possession, but she had not quite enough for the demands of yesterday. "
I assume this is was because Maria was told Henry had made a marriage proposal to Fanny?

185. "As for any society in Portsmouth, that could at all make amends for deficiencies at home, there were none within the circle of her father's and mother's acquaintance to afford her the smallest satisfaction: she saw nobody in whose favour she could wish to overcome her own shyness and reserve. The men appeared to her all coarse, the women all pert,"
If by pert, she means 'jaunty', does that necessarily make them ill-bred?

186. "Susan, she found, looked up to her and wished for her good opinion; and new as anything like an office of authority was to Fanny, new as it was to imagine herself capable of guiding or informing any one, she did resolve to give occasional hints to Susan, and endeavour to exercise for her advantage the juster notions of what was due to everybody, and what would be wisest for herself, which her own more favoured education had fixed in her."
This comment made me smile, because of course everything is relative; weren't we saying the young Bertram sisters were lacking in moral education? But of course compared to the Price household, I guess the education at Mansfield Park in general is by far the superior one.

187. "a silver knife was bought for Betsey, and accepted with great delight, its newness giving it every advantage over the other that could be desired; Susan was established in the full possession of her own, Betsey handsomely declaring that now she had got one so much prettier herself, she should never want that again; and no reproach seemed conveyed to the equally satisfied mother, which Fanny had almost feared to be impossible. The deed thoroughly answered: a source of domestic altercation was entirely done away"
I'd omitted to bring this up in chapter 7/38 when the issue of the silver knife was first brought up; firstly, I was wondering why a little girl would have a silver knife to begin with, and what kind of knife this would be? Secondly, I suppose this is yet another example of bad parenting that Mrs Price allows her girls to fight over the little knife in the first place, which should never have happened...

188. what does 'in propria persona' mean in the context of Fanny borrowing books from the library? I wonder why this is such a big deal, after all, she's not buying them; it isn't as if she gets to keep them and get to have anything to own for herself. I guess it goes to show how low she's been kept all her life so far.



Chapter 10 / Chapter 41

189. "He stopt; and, ungentlemanlike as he looked, Fanny was obliged to introduce him to Mr. Crawford. She could not have a doubt of the manner in which Mr. Crawford must be struck. He must be ashamed and disgusted altogether. He must soon give her up, and cease to have the smallest inclination for the match; and yet, though she had been so much wanting his affection to be cured, this was a sort of cure that would be almost as bad as the complaint; and I believe there is scarcely a young lady in the United Kingdoms who would not rather put up with the misfortune of being sought by a clever, agreeable man, than have him driven away by the vulgarity of her nearest relations."
Poor Fanny, I could truly feel her mortification in this passage, and how clever of JA to say 'the cure would be almost as bad as the complaint'!

190. "The conclusion of the two gentlemen's civilities..."
This follows the previous paragraph and I couldn't help but wonder if Austen was being facetious or cynical by suddenly converting Mr Price into a 'gentleman', which he clearly isn't, never was, and never will be!?

191. "For her approbation, the particular reason of his going into Norfolk at all, at this unusual time of year, was given."
What is unusual about the time of the year for his going?

192. "Mansfield, Sotherton, Thornton Lacey," he continued; "what a society will be comprised in those houses! And at Michaelmas, perhaps, a fourth may be added: some small hunting-box in the vicinity of everything so dear; for as to any partnership in Thornton Lacey, as Edmund Bertram once good-humouredly proposed, I hope I foresee two objections: two fair, excellent, irresistible objections to that plan."
"Fanny was doubly silenced here"
I suppose he is referring to Edmund and Mary's eventual household at Thornton Lacey? And why was Fanny 'doubly silenced? Does the 'fourth' and the 'small hunting-box' refer to their own residence once married to each-other?



Chapter 11 / Chapter 42

193. "Mrs. Price, coming abroad with a fine family of children, feeling a little respite of her weekly cares, and only discomposed if she saw her boys run into danger, or Rebecca pass by with a flower in her hat."
Why should something like that bother her? Because she couldn't afford a flower herself, or is it something else?

194. "She was very low. The wonderful improvement which she still fancied in Mr. Crawford was the nearest to administering comfort of anything within the current of her thoughts. Not considering in how different a circle she had been just seeing him, nor how much might be owing to contrast, she was quite persuaded of his being astonishingly more gentle and regardful of others than formerly. And, if in little things, must it not be so in great? So anxious for her health and comfort, so very feeling as he now expressed himself, and really seemed, might not it be fairly supposed that he would not much longer persevere in a suit so distressing to her?"
Poor Fanny. This family visit is hard enough as it is for her, and Henry's intrusion on top of it all must make it all the more painful, if anything once she has time to really think it all over...

Sorry, all! Didn't mean to leave you hanging. (Stupid family commitments, grumble...)

Volume III, Chapter 8 / Chapter 39

182. Yes, she's overwhelmed by her circumstances to a point where she's almost paralysed in the face of very ordinary proceedings. Still, we should appreciate that this is Fanny's view filtered through her own hurt feelings and sense of rejection.

183. Austen is simply paraphrasing---"Marriage has many pains, but celibacy has no pleasures."

Volume III, Chapter 9 / Chapter 40

184. Yes. Note, though, that this is another example of Mary's lack of understanding of Fanny, who she expects will feel pleased or vain because of her "triumph" over Maria.

185. "Pert" means bold or impudent, brash-mannered.

186. But we also said that the Bertram sisters and Fanny were brought up quite differently. :)

Whatever may have been lacking with regard to Maria and Julia's moral guidance, we can appreciate the gulf between the relative experiences of Fanny and Susan. Mansfield Park generally is a well-run household, and by and large a good example of how people should interact in society---albeit certainly not perfect. Fanny has had plenty of opportunities to absorb the right way of doing things (sometimes by observing the wrong way!).

187. It was probably either a small fruit-knife, or a paper-knife used to cut open the pages of new books. It seems odd to us but small silver trinkets such as knives were commonly given as presents, particularly confirmation presents, by godparents; being silver made the gift of lasting value.

The girls brawling over the knife, Mrs Price's unjust championing of Betsey and Betsey ignoring her mother's commands about leaving the knife alone are still more evidence of how badly run the family is.

188. We must surely all pause here and take Fanny to our hearts as one of us!---

Fanny found it impossible not to try for books again. There were none in her father's house; but wealth is luxurious and daring, and some of hers found its way to a circulating library. She became a subscriber; amazed at being anything in propria persona, amazed at her own doings in every way, to be a renter, a chuser of books! And to be having any one's improvement in view in her choice! But so it was. Susan had read nothing, and Fanny longed to give her a share in her own first pleasures...

"In propria persona" is a legal phrase meaning "in one's own person", i.e. to act on one's own, without representation.

We need to appreciate the significance of Fanny's actions over the course of this chapter, first with regard to the knife, then with regard to subscribing to the circulating library: these are the first wholly autonomous actions of her life. The subscription is even more significant since, though she does it partially for Susan's benefit, she is also doing it for her own---probably the first time in her life that she has done something for her own pleasure, just because she wants to. It indicates that Fanny is beginning to think and act as an independent adult; Sir Thomas sending her away has achieved that, at least.

Volume III, Chapter 10 / Chapter 41

189. Ouch, yes! You just feel the depths of her mortification here, don't you??

190. No, she's emphasising again that Mr Price can rise to the occasion when he needs to, that his manners can be "gentlemanly".

It's actually an interesting point, whether Mr Price can technically be considered a gentleman or not. There are several ways in which Mansfield Park and Persuasion echo each other, and that they both have the navy prominent is one; both deal with the social standing of people in the navy. Mr Price, of course, was a marine, which for some time was regarded as lower ranked than the navy; and in fact for many years marines could not advance in their profession beyond the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel. In 1802 there was an attempt made to raise their profile and standing by changing their name to the "Royal Marines".

In Persuasion Sir William Eliot dislikes the navy because it is "a means of bringing persons of obscure birth into undue distinction". All the officers in Persuasion would certainly be considered gentleman, achieving that status through their profession rather than (or just because of) their birth. Here we see William Price following the same path. Whether Mr Price may be regarded as a gentleman is doubtful, but we can be confident that William will be so regarded in time.

191. It is early in the New Year, so a gentleman in Henry's position would be expected to be heading to London for the Season; there is nothing to do in the country (socially speaking) at this time of year.

191. Originally Henry suggested himself as a tenant for Thornton Lacey; Sir Thomas rejected this idea as he was determined that Edmund would be living there. The hunting-box, as you indicate, would be Henry's alternative residence in the neighbourhood. He is certainly envisaging a future of Edmund and Mary at Thornton Lacey, Maria and Mr Rushworth at Sotherton, and himself and Fanny staying at their hunting-box when they aren't in Norfolk.

Fanny can't decide which aspect of that picture appals her most.

Volume III, Chapter 11 / Chapter 42

193. A servant shouldn't be wearing a decorative hat; it's more evidence of Mrs Price being unable to control her household.

194. Interesting that Henry's "improvement", whether real or perceived, makes no difference at all to Fanny's feelings towards him---just to her hope that the new, considerate Henry will understand and go away.

>95 lyzard:

193. Was there any reason given for why a servant should not be seen wearing a decorative hat?

I'm getting very near to the end and feeling quite torn; on the one hand I'm dying to see how the story gets all neatly tied together, but on the sorry I'm sorry to see it come to a close as I've been enjoying living with the characters, and especially with Fanny Price, as I'm quite fond of her. So I'm in no great big rush to finish, but I guess it'll inevitably happen in the coming days...

In the meantime I've read three more chapters...

***

Volume III, Chapters 12 to 14 / Chapters 43 to 45


Chapter 12 / Chapter 43

195. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the sense Mary's letter, that is the body of the letter, doesn't convey much of anything, and the real information is the fact they wish to bring back Fanny to Mansfield Park. But perhaps I've missed something important?

196. "What Fanny told her of former times dwelt more on her mind than the pages of Goldsmith; and she paid her sister the compliment of preferring her style to that of any printed author."
I'm not sure what is meant here. What did Goldsmith write?


Chapter 13 / Chapter 44

— No Questions / Comments —


Chapter 14 / Chapter 45

197. "Her eagerness, her impatience, her longings to be with them, were such as to bring a line or two of Cowper's Tirocinium for ever before her. "With what intense desire she wants her home," was continually on her tongue, as the truest description of a yearning which she could not suppose any schoolboy's bosom to feel more keenly."
This is the second time Cowper has been brought up by Fanny. Am I guessing right that he was a favourite of Jane Austen's? His name is familiar to me, but would you please give me a few salient points about him?

198. "Portsmouth was Portsmouth; Mansfield was home."
I think we understood that pretty much from the moment she set foot back in her family home! Poor thing, she didn't need another three months to make sure she'd gotten it right!

199. "To all she must have saved some trouble of head or hand; and were it only in supporting the spirits of her aunt Bertram, keeping her from the evil of solitude, or the still greater evil of a restless, officious companion, too apt to be heightening danger in order to enhance her own importance"
Amazing how that pithy description brings to mind exactly the person we are meant to think of right away! Austen has done such an amazing job of describing her to us throughout the novel that the 'officious companion' in question doesn't need naming by this time, much like the devil himself!

200. "I never bribed a physician in my life. Poor young man! If he is to die, there will be two poor young men less in the world; and with a fearless face and bold voice would I say to any one, that wealth and consequence could fall into no hands more deserving of them. It was a foolish precipitation last Christmas, but the evil of a few days may be blotted out in part. Varnish and gilding hide many stains. It will be but the loss of the Esquire after his name."
There is obviously a great deal of information I am missing from this communication, as the passage above is unintelligible to me. Had she perhaps fallen in love with another young man in the meantime who passed away? Please explain!

What I do understand though, it that obviously Mary has been occupied with other matters, but now that Edmund stands some chance of coming into money she has suddenly become very interested in him again, and I can certainly sympathise with Fanny's distrust of her. I can't help but wonder why Mary continues to have fans among readers of Mansfield Park when she is so patently manipulative and self-serving!

***

Only three more chapters to go!

>96 Smiler69:

Good servants dressed quietly and modestly and behaved accordingly; Rebecca roaming the streets in a fancy hat indicates her disregard of the rules of conduct, which in turn is a reflection upon her employers who put up with this sort of thing.

I'm very glad you're enjoying it, Ilana! :)

Volume III, Chapter 12 / Chapter 43

195. There are various things going on in this letter. First it reinforces Henry's continuing interest in Fanny, which he conveys via Mary because he can't write to her himself - Mary is simply showing that he has told her all about everything that happened in Portsmouth.

The second part of the letter concerns Mary's own feelings. She wants to be with Fanny because since leaving her sister's house she has no-one to talk to openly---and clearly, she is not about to admit to her "friends" Mrs Fraser and Lady Stornaway that she is in love with, and contemplating marrying, a clergyman. She had gone so far as to admit an interest in Edmund, and her friends have approved his "gentlemanlike appearance" and his "person, height, and air" (presumably the subtext here is, "for a younger son"). But they do not know, and Mary has not told them, that he is a clergyman, hence her relief over the fact that "there is no distinction of dress nowadays" - meaning that Edmund was not wearing clerical garb and so no-one could tell his profession by looking at him. That "but—but—but" at the end emphasises Mary's inability to accept Edmund's position.

The third part reverts (or mostly) to Henry and Fanny and requires a bit of reading between the lines. The concern over Fanny's possible loss of looks may or may not be a disguised expression of Henry's wish to remove her from her undesirable family (he can't be thrilled with the prospect of his in-laws). The reference to "seeing the inside of St. George's, Hanover Square" is again pushing for the marriage of Henry and Fanny---at this time St George's was the most fashionable place in London to be married (and yes, there were "fashionable" churches!). Mary follows that up with a wry joke about herself staying away so she won't be tempted to marry Edmund, again highlighting her ambivalence. The close of the letter, however, is another revelation of the wrong impulses of both Henry and Mary, since he ought to be staying away from Maria, and she should be insisting he does. Instead, he's staying in London to attend a party just so he can see her, and Mary is encouraging it because she's curious to see the two of them together, now that Maria is married.

(We should note that Fanny has softened so far towards Henry as to choose to believe he won't attend the party; though possibly that's just because she prefers placing all the weight of any wrong conduct on Mary's shoulders!)

196. Oliver Goldsmith was a novelist, a poet and a playwright; he wrote one of the late 18th century's most important and successful novels, The Vicar Of Wakefield, and one of its most successful plays, She Stoops To Conquer. He was also a forerunner to the romantic poets, with his poems and "ballads" expressing sympathy with the concept of romantic love, and also a love of nature and the countryside. The Deserted Village is about the destruction of villages and traditional country life as a result of the newly wealthy "taking over" the land.

We know Fanny isn't much for fiction, so she may have been reading Goldsmith's poems. Alternatively, his The Citizen Of The World may have appealed to her: this was a series of fake letters, supposedly written by a wealthy Chinese merchant travelling through Britain, which offered a critical commentary on British society.

Poor Susan, however:

...without any of the early delight in books which had been so strong in Fanny...the early habit of reading was wanting...

Susan is less interested in reading, or in having Fanny read to her, than in hearing what Fanny has to say about what she reads and, presumably, its historical context: What Fanny told her of former times dwelt more on her mind than the pages of Goldsmith; and she paid her sister the compliment of preferring her style to that of any printed author...

Volume III, Chapter 13 / Chapter 44

— No Questions / Comments —

WHAT!? Outrageous!!!! :D

On the back of Fanny's impulse to be generous towards Henry, we should note that she was wrong in expecting better of him:

The last time I saw Crawford was at Mrs Fraser's party. I am more and more satisfied with all that I see and hear of him. There is not a shadow of wavering. He thoroughly knows his own mind, and acts up to his resolutions: an inestimable quality. I could not see him and my eldest sister in the same room without recollecting what you once told me, and I acknowledge that they did not meet as friends. There was marked coolness on her side. They scarcely spoke. I saw him draw back surprised, and I was sorry that Mrs Rushworth should resent any former supposed slight to Miss Bertram...

Volume III, Chapter 14 / Chapter 44

197. William Cowper was indeed one of Austen's favourite poets. He was famous for stepping away from the trend of analysing society in poetry to write (like Goldsmith) about the beauties of the countryside and nature, and to find value in simple lives and ordinary things. He was also very religious and wrote many famous hymns in addition to his poetry.

We have seen before that Austen does give her characters some of the same literary tastes as herself, and we should note here that Cowper is also a favourite of Marianne Dashwood---who in other ways is as unlike Fanny as possible. This suggests that there are emotional depths in Fanny that she does not permit herself to show.

198. But she wanted to be able to think of Portsmouth at home, and probably would have continued to do so had she found any kind of welcome there.

199. Oh, yes, there's never a misstep in the delineation of Mrs Norris, she is horrifyingly real!

200. No, Mary is suggesting jokingly - by denying it - that she bribed a doctor to either make Tom ill in the first place, or to ensure that he doesn't recover.

It isn't that Mary ever lost interest, as we saw from the analysis of her earlier letters, but Edmund with a fortune, Edmund as heir to Sir Thomas Bertram, is a very different prospect from The Reverend Mr Bertram.

There is a lot going on in this letter and none of it to Mary's credit; though I suppose for her to pretend not to take an interest in the likelihood of Tom's death would be hypocrisy. First, she is trying to get an accurate picture of the state of Tom's health and how likely it is he will recover - or not. She expresses some conventional sorrow---and then jokes about her own insincerity. She also shows once again that she does not understand Fanny at all, by suggesting that she appreciates her position and shares her feelings: Fanny, Fanny, I see you smile and look cunning...

Mary's remark about "two poor young men less in the world" means, briefly, that Tom will be dead and Edmund will be his father's heir. She then complains about Edmund rushing into his ordination as a clergyman - "It was a foolish precipitation last Christmas" - but comforts herself with the thought that his being a clergyman will be eventually outweighed by wealth, an estate and a title.

The letter finishes with some nasty implications about Maria and (in particular) Julia, who it is suggested are pretending not to believe that Tom is seriously ill so that they won't have to cut short their London pleasures and return to Mansfield. It is then confirmed that Maria, at least, does know how serious things are. It also reveals that Henry has been staying in Richmond---near to where Maria is visiting...

I can't help but wonder why Mary continues to have fans among readers of Mansfield Park when she is so patently manipulative and self-serving!

Good is boring, I suppose---and passive resistance more boring still. :)

But we'll leave it to the Mary-ites to make a case for her!

>101 lyzard: Mary is entertaining. And she has the charming habit of just saying whatever pops into her head, which gets her in trouble more than not. Remember that she's young, too, and was raised with even less attention to her moral upbringing than the much worse Maria and Julia. And despite this, she has a natural warmth, especially when it comes to Fanny, who does not behave well with her -- outwardly behaving as though she were Mary's friend while harboring some seriously unkind thoughts.

Mary is all impulse and frivolity; falling for Edmund, which she sincerely does, means letting go of everything she's valued to this point. Is it any wonder she fights the attraction?

Volume III, Chapter 15 / Chapter 46

In Which Everything Comes Apart, and Yet...

201. "There was neither health nor gaiety in sunshine in a town."
I feel for poor Fanny here. I feel for poor city-bound residents such as myself around the world too, because the above statement is sadly often all too true. But I still wouldn't mind some sunshine and warmth, and spring-like weather in general, which we are promised in coming days!

202. "Fanny read to herself that "it was with infinite concern the newspaper had to announce to the world a matrimonial fracas in the family of Mr R. of Wimpole Street; the beautiful Mrs R., whose name had not long been enrolled in the lists of Hymen, and who had promised to become so brilliant a leader in the fashionable world, having quitted her husband's roof in company with the well-known and captivating Mr C., the intimate friend and associate of Mr R., and it was not known even to the editor of the newspaper whither they were gone."
Here is the great drama at last! I'd entirely forgotten about this plot twist, believe it or not! What are the lists of Hymen? What a very odd name, which surely can't relate to what it actually brings to mind, can it?!?

203. "The horror of a mind like Fanny's, as it received the conviction of such guilt, and began to take in some part of the misery that must ensue, can hardly be described. At first, it was a sort of stupefaction; but every moment was quickening her perception of the horrible evil. She could not doubt, she dared not indulge a hope, of the paragraph being false."
Of course, anybody else, not so good as Fanny would immediately see that she is at last free from an annoying suitor, and that the one woman who was barring the way to Edmund's heart has now most probably bitten the dust!

204. "if there was a woman of character in existence, who could treat as a trifle this sin of the first magnitude, who would try to gloss it over, and desire to have it unpunished, she could believe Miss Crawford to be the woman!"
As I was saying...

205. "The event was so shocking, that there were moments even when her heart revolted from it as impossible: when she thought it could not be."
True, it's shocking enough, but considering who the two major players are, it isn't quite so surprising after all, and even Fanny should realize that, since she was the first to witness how shockingly they behaved at the visit to Sotherton and during the rehearsals, after all.

206. "You may not have heard of the last blow—Julia's elopement; she is gone to Scotland with Yates."
Here JA outdoes the shock factor of P&P even, when Lydia runs away with Wickham... now we've got TWO for one! :-D

207. "I am sure you will feel such an instance of his kindness at such a moment! Do justice to his meaning, however I may confuse it. "
I'm not sure what Edmund means by this.

208. "As nothing was really left for the decision of Mrs Price, or the good offices of Rebecca, everything was rationally and duly accomplished"
Another brilliant phrases in the novel!

209. "He was alone, and met her instantly; and she found herself pressed to his heart with only these words, just articulate, "My Fanny, my only sister; my only comfort now!"
Yes indeed! Now we're on the right path!

210. "The carriage came; and he entered the house again at the same moment, just in time to spend a few minutes with the family, and be a witness—but that he saw nothing—of the tranquil manner in which the daughters were parted with, and just in time to prevent their sitting down to the breakfast-table, which, by dint of much unusual activity, was quite and completely ready as the carriage drove from the door. Fanny's last meal in her father's house was in character with her first: she was dismissed from it as hospitably as she had been welcomed."
This paragraph made me smile, but there are a couple of details I'm not sure I understood correctly. 'The tranquil manner' is said sarcastically, correct? And I believe the last sentence is another bit of sarcasm?

>102 RidgewayGirl:

I don't blame her either for the attraction or the resistance, until she reaches the point of actively hoping for someone's death as the easiest solution to her problem. :)

I agree with you completely about Mary's bad education---but that's exactly the point. A major theme of the whole novel is the damage done to young people, and particularly girls, by neglected duties and inadequate guidance from those who have the responsibility for them. Both Mary and Maria end up suffering for the sins of others in this respect, though in addition each of them has the opportunity to make better and wiser choices than they do. Maria, we conclude, errs consciously, deliberately---which is why her punishment is so severe; whereas the point is made about Mary that she doesn't realise how far she has strayed - a mind led astray and bewildered, and without any suspicion of being so; darkened, yet fancying itself light.

Volume III, Chapter 15 / Chapter 46

201. ...while we're just sliding out of summer through a wet autumn into winter. :)

202. Yes, it does in fact relate to that! Hymen was the Greek god of marriage ceremonies; if he attended the wedding personally, the marriage would go well, and if not, not. (I'm not sure what form the "personal attendance" of a god was supposed to take!) Expressions like "entering the lists of Hymen" are a common euphemism for marriage in 18th and 19th century literature, with of course an added implication about the virginity of the bride...

203. She gets there in good time! But we know her sympathetic temperament makes her vulnerable to imagining other people's feelings, we have had numerous examples of that through the narrative.

204. There you go! :)

205. It's still a pretty big leap from improper flirting to not just an affair, but an adulterous public elopement. Add to that Fanny's growing recent conviction that Henry was sincere in his courtship of her...

206. But to do them justice, Julia and Yates do mean marriage---he has been courting her since he first visited Mansfield Park.

207. Even at the height of his distress, Sir Thomas has thought of Fanny's situation and issued an invitation to Susan to travel back with her to Mansfield Park. He has sent a polite message of invitation to the Prices, which Edmund in his own distressed state forgets and can't pass on properly to Fanny---he tells her to "say what is proper" in respect of conveying Sir Thomas's compliments to her parents and the invitation.

208. Ouch!

209. Yeah, he needs to work on the "sister" bit, though... :D

210. Yes, both "tranquil" and "hospitably" indicate that Fanny's family make exactly the same amount of fuss over her leaving than they did over her arrival---i.e. none.

201. ...while we're just sliding out of summer through a wet autumn into winter. :)

All too true! Winter over here has been endless though, and we're very much ready for a change!

203. She gets there in good time!

Yes indeed! I'm just about to post questions/comments for chapter 16/47 and was happy to finally read a sentence which showed this to be a truism.

204. Just in case anyone was in doubt that I am NOT a fan of Mary's!

206. Yes, but as is pointed out, the timing and the manner of her going away with him couldn't be worse!

207. I must say I was quite surprised that Sir Thomas, having forgotten all about Fanny all this time, NOW remembers her, and with such kindness too, but obviously it took this great shocking event to remind him how much she was a necessary part of the family, and more than ever now that they've lost their daughters.

209. Yes well... He's still got a couple of chapters to get there. ;-)

210. Oh, and another thing I'm not clear on each time I read this passage: 'and just in time to prevent their sitting down to the breakfast-table'. I'm assuming this is the family being spoken of, since the sisters have already had breakfast, correct?

Volume III, Chapter 16 / Chapter 47

211. "but Mrs Norris, instead of having comfort from either, was but the more irritated by the sight of the person whom, in the blindness of her anger, she could have charged as the daemon of the piece. Had Fanny accepted Mr Crawford this could not have happened."
Count on Mrs Norris to put that slant on things! Interesting though that Mary does too in her way, later on in her conversation with Edmund.

212. "but whenever Lady Bertram was fixed on the event, she could see it only in one light, as comprehending the loss of a daughter, and a disgrace never to be wiped off."
Is this truly the only way in which the events can be interpreted? Or is this only Lady Bertram's narrow view of things?

213. "Mr Harding feared there had been at least very flagrant indiscretion. The maidservant of Mrs Rushworth, senior, threatened alarmingly."
What does the maid have to do with any of this?

214. "He was doing all in his power to quiet everything, with the hope of Mrs Rushworth's return, but was so much counteracted in Wimpole Street by the influence of Mr Rushworth's mother, that the worst consequences might be apprehended."
"The servant of Mrs Rushworth, the mother, had exposure in her power, and supported by her mistress, was not to be silenced."
Am I to understand that Mrs Rushworth senior herself is wanting to make the affair public? Why would she want to bring this kind of scandal on her own family?

215. "Julia's elopement, the additional blow which had met him on his arrival in London, though its force had been deadened at the moment, must, she knew, be sorely felt. She saw that it was. His letters expressed how much he deplored it. Under any circumstances it would have been an unwelcome alliance; but to have it so clandestinely formed, and such a period chosen for its completion, placed Julia's feelings in a most unfavourable light, and severely aggravated the folly of her choice. He called it a bad thing, done in the worst manner, and at the worst time."
This is why I was saying in my previous comment that the shock factor was doubled from that of P&P, as we get two elopements instead of just the one. Timing is one thing, and really, I doubt she could have chosen a less suitable husband for herself as far as Sir Thomas is concerned—that most offensive Mr Yates, just think of it!

216. "though Julia was yet as more pardonable than Maria as folly than vice, he could not but regard the step she had taken as opening the worst probabilities of a conclusion hereafter like her sister's. Such was his opinion of the set into which she had thrown herself."
Please explain this passage.

217. "Fanny was not in the secret of her uncle's feelings, Sir Thomas not in the secret of Miss Crawford's character. Had he been privy to her conversation with his son, he would not have wished her to belong to him, though her twenty thousand pounds had been forty."
I have been just as biased against Mary as Fanny has been from the beginning, but I think if Sir Thomas had heard her conversations from the start as we have, he would have come to the same opinion much earlier I think. That joke about the 'Rears and Vices' alone would have done it!

218. "Guess what I must have felt. To hear the woman whom—no harsher name than folly given! So voluntarily, so freely, so coolly to canvass it! No reluctance, no horror, no feminine, shall I say, no modest loathings? This is what the world does. For where, Fanny, shall we find a woman whom nature had so richly endowed? Spoilt, spoilt!"
Poor Edmund. You would think he would have had a better idea of her character just from the fact she was opposed to him taking orders. Love is indeed blind!

219. "She spoke of you with high praise and warm affection; yet, even here, there was alloy, a dash of evil; for in the midst of it she could exclaim, 'Why would not she have him? It is all her fault. Simple girl! I shall never forgive her. Had she accepted him as she ought, they might now have been on the point of marriage, and Henry would have been too happy and too busy to want any other object. He would have taken no pains to be on terms with Mrs Rushworth again. It would have all ended in a regular standing flirtation, in yearly meetings at Sotherton and Everingham.' "
Echoes of Mrs Norris. And to hear her say it would have all ended in a 'regular standing flirtation' must have horrified Edmund no end! This is where Mary's awful upbringing really shows—she has no idea she should modulate her discourse, even in front of Edmund, poor thing. I can't like Mary, but I do feel sorry for her at this point.

220. "Could you have believed it possible? But the charm is broken. My eyes are opened."
"all this together most grievously convinced me that I had never understood her before, and that, as far as related to mind, it had been the creature of my own imagination, not Miss Crawford, that I had been too apt to dwell on for many months past."
At last!

221. "I looked back. 'Mr Bertram,' said she, with a smile; but it was a smile ill-suited to the conversation that had passed, a saucy playful smile, seeming to invite in order to subdue me; at least it appeared so to me. I resisted; it was the impulse of the moment to resist, and still walked on. I have since, sometimes, for a moment, regretted that I did not go back, but I know I was right, and such has been the end of our acquaintance."
I can't help but wonder what she meant by that smile. Did she think she could still win him over after what passed between them?! Again, I DO feel sorry for her.

***

Just one more to go...

>106 Smiler69:

206. And that's intentional - Julia elopes with Yates chiefly to avoid having to go home and face her parents.

207. Well, we've seen before that Sir Thomas is capable of looking past his immediate emotion. Fanny's behaviour in contrast to Maria and Julia's must be evident to him, and given Henry's role in this disaster, he may well be recognising and trying to atone for his injustice towards her.

210. Fanny tells Edmund that he and Susan will be able to have breakfast during the time that it takes him to bring the carriage to the house, but things are (as usual) so disorganised in the house that when Edmund returns their breakfast is only just ready - they leave without having anything.

Volume III, Chapter 16 / Chapter 47

211. Though they are blaming from different perspectives, Mrs Norris to shift some of the culpability away from Maria (and herself), Mary out of her knowledge of Henry's character, as we see from your later quote.

212. Yes, pretty much. In fact this is saying the opposite from what you are suggesting, that there *is* only one way of seeing this, and that even the usually vague and unfocused Lady Bertram sees it: Lady Bertram did not think deeply, but, guided by Sir Thomas, she thought justly on all important points; and she saw, therefore, in all its enormity, what had happened...

We need to appreciate that, at this time, the landed gentry, the class to which Bertrams (and the Austens) belong, had the strictest and most unforgiving moral code. Amongst the aristocracy an affair like this might be hushed up and laughed off, but at this level of society Maria has damned herself and there is no way back for her. (At least...not unless Henry subsequently marries her...)

213. Presumably any attempt to hush up the scandal will be thwarted by the maid of Mrs Rushworth Senior, who may be an eyewitness of Maria's behaviour---and probably of the fact that Maria did indeed leave her husband's house. We assume that the maid has adopted her employer's attitude towards Maria.

214. She wants to get rid of Maria. There have been various allusions all along to Maria's open scorn of Mr Rushworth and rudeness and inconsideration to his mother, and in spite of the scandal Mrs Rushworth Senior wants her gone.

In cases like this, if a man took his wife back in the first instance, it was as if the affair had never happened: he could not then turn around and divorce her and, effectively, her reputation was re-established. Mr Harding, on Sir Thomas's behalf, is apparently trying to bring about a reconciliation between Maria and Mr Rushworth, but Mrs Rushworth is working to prevent this so that Mr Rushworth will be compelled to sue for divorce.

215. True, but at least we have to concede that Yates' feelings for Julia are sincere, whatever hers for him might be. And a marriage, however badly motivated and enacted, is on an entirely different moral plain from Maria's affair.

216. Sir Thomas knows that Maria never cared for Mr Rushworth, and look how things have turned out. He is afraid that Julia cares nothing for Yates either, and that there is a real possibility she will end up travelling the same road as her sister---not least because Yates belongs to the same social "set" as the Rushworths, and Julia will be subject to the same (im)moral influences as Maria.

217. Sir Thomas knows both Crawfords only in a superficial, social way---his judgement of them echoes his satisfaction with Maria and Julia and their "accomplishments". In both cases he fails to look beyond an attractive surface, with disastrous consequences.

218. He's been telling himself all along that "she doesn't really mean it", that her light conversation reflected her love of a joke, rather than expressing her true feelings. He's absolutely right to say, Spoilt, spoilt! There was infinite potential there, but built over a rotten base.

219. Yes, as in her interactions with Fanny, she is revealing her fundamental misunderstanding of Edmund here---in the same way that she never understood that he was taking orders out of a sense of vocation, not merely for the convenience of a house and an income. Hence her anger at him for not just doing "something else". And as you say, you do feel sorry for her, because she can't even see what the problem is:

    "And what," said Fanny (believing herself required to speak), "what could you say?"
    "Nothing, nothing to be understood..."

220. And likewise, as in 218.

221. Probably---after all, he's spent a year trying to overcome his feelings for her, and failing. She knows very well how attracted to her he is, or has been. And even now she can hardly believe he means what he just said to her.

It is interesting to compare the patched-up marriage towards the end of Pride And Prejudice with the failure to patch anything up here. Of course in this instance there would have to be a divorce first, which at the time was a long, messy, expensive and very public process.

We can only gape at Mary's recipe for re-establishing Maria, via her family's acquiescence in her position as Henry's live-in mistress!

"When once married, and properly supported by her own family, people of respectability as they are, she may recover her footing in society to a certain degree. In some circles, we know, she would never be admitted, but with good dinners, and large parties, there will always be those who will be glad of her acquaintance; and there is, undoubtedly, more liberality and candour on those points than formerly. What I advise is, that your father be quiet. Do not let him injure his own cause by interference. Persuade him to let things take their course. If by any officious exertions of his, she is induced to leave Henry's protection, there will be much less chance of his marrying her than if she remain with him. I know how he is likely to be influenced. Let Sir Thomas trust to his honour and compassion, and it may all end well..."

Robert Rodi contends that Julia eloped with Yates so that they could be married before her family (and her own marital chances) were ruined by her sister's actions. Remember in Pride and Prejudice how Lydia's behavior threatened to make her sisters unmarriageable? This may have been her one sensible action!

As for Mary, I think that she was desperately trying to keep Edmund. As a very young woman, wouldn't her brother's behavior taint her? Henry and Maria's actions had serious repercussions for many people.

How badly would such behavior damage those around the pair?

>111 RidgewayGirl:

It's possible. Since this happens in the wake of Maria's exposure, clearly Yates has not been put off by that---although it is also possible that Julia is seeing the big picture and decided to secure Yates before he has time to think about things, for the reason you suggest. To do Yates justice, his interest in Julia is obviously sincere, and there is no indication later that he regrets his connection with her. We're a lot less certain of Julia's feelings and motives than we are of his.

As for the general repercussions, no, broadly speaking Mary's reputation would not be hurt by Henry's conduct---only female misbehaviour was damaging, and then only to other females. Men could openly sin and still be considered respectable. Fanny herself is the other potential victim, but since she is effectively outside mainstream society anyway it doesn't have that effect on her.

You are right in highlighting the fallout of Lydia's conduct in Pride And Prejudice, and we discussed that at the time; but we should also note that this sort of thing was only an issue if a man chose to make it an issue. Thus in P&P, Darcy and Bingley, who already know and appreciate Elizabeth and Jane, are not negatively influenced by Lydia's behaviour; but in general terms the other Bennet sisters would indeed be considered "tainted". (As things work out, the patched-up marriage and the marriages made by Elizabeth and Jane would tilt the balance back and ensure that Mary and Kitty were not in fact hurt in the long term.)

So the problem here is not necessarily that Mary has been damaged by what Henry has done, but rather that the situation dictates a complete severance between the Bertrams and the Crawfords, regardless of the innocence of the other parties concerned. The situation divides Mary from Edmund, but it will not necessarily hurt her chances with some other man.

Note, however, that Fanny isn't quite sure that the severance is going to happen:

That Edmund must be for ever divided from Miss Crawford did not admit of a doubt with Fanny; and yet, till she knew that he felt the same, her own conviction was insufficient. She thought he did, but she wanted to be assured of it...

She can imagine a scenario in which Edmund persists on the grounds of Mary's personal innocence. He does go to Mary anticipating their final parting...but we, and Fanny, have repeatedly seen before how his resolutions can be overturned just by actually being with Mary. What he intends at the outset, and what actually happens during their interview, may be two different things.

In this case, however, Mary herself is responsible for their final separation, because of her attitude: "No harsher name than folly given! So voluntarily, so freely, so coolly to canvass it! No reluctance, no horror, no feminine, shall I say, no modest loathings?" She shows not only the state of her own mind and morals, but her fundamental misunderstanding of Edmund. She reveals that to him, and he withdraws from her permanently as a consequence.

>110 lyzard: >111 RidgewayGirl: >112 lyzard: Interesting comments.

I'll be back tomorrow with questions on the final chapter.

Sorry it took me some time to get back. Here are my questions and comments on the final chapter:

Volume III, Chapter 17 / Chapter 48

222. "she would still have been happy without any of it, for Edmund was no longer the dupe of Miss Crawford."
Yes, I'm sure this made her happy enough, but certainly the prospects of what possibilities this opened up for her played a role in that happiness...

223. "She was humble, and wishing to be forgiven; and Mr. Yates, desirous of being really received into the family, was disposed to look up to him and be guided."
He's certainly going about things the right way to earn his father-in-law's approval by pandering to his pride as the patriarch of the family, whether he does so deliberately or not!

224. "There was comfort also in Tom, who gradually regained his health, without regaining the thoughtlessness and selfishness of his previous habits. He was the better for ever for his illness. He had suffered, and he had learned to think: two advantages that he had never known before; and the self-reproach arising from the deplorable event in Wimpole Street, to which he felt himself accessory by all the dangerous intimacy of his unjustifiable theatre, made an impression on his mind which, at the age of six-and-twenty, with no want of sense or good companions, was durable in its happy effects. He became what he ought to be: useful to his father, steady and quiet, and not living merely for himself."
I can't call to mind the subsequent novels at this time, but from the two previous novels, this is the second time Jane Austen uses a grave illness as an opportunity to improve a character in terms of understanding and maturity. We saw this with Marianne in Sense & Sensibility of course, and in her case it quite changed the course of the novel as it would have ended quite differently otherwise!

225. "Bitterly did he deplore a deficiency which now he could scarcely comprehend to have been possible. Wretchedly did he feel, that with all the cost and care of an anxious and expensive education, he had brought up his daughters without their understanding their first duties, or his being acquainted with their character and temper."
That understanding comes to him a little bit late, and at the cost of a great disaster, but at least Sir Thomas is able to take stock and recognize his own errors.

226. "The high spirit and strong passions of Mrs Rushworth, especially, were made known to him only in their sad result. She was not to be prevailed on to leave Mr. Crawford. She hoped to marry him, and they continued together till she was obliged to be convinced that such hope was vain, and till the disappointment and wretchedness arising from the conviction rendered her temper so bad, and her feelings for him so like hatred, as to make them for a while each other's punishment, and then induce a voluntary separation."
A sad fate, but a wonderful expression!

227. "It ended in Mrs Norris's resolving to quit Mansfield and devote herself to her unfortunate Maria"
All's well that ends well, as far as that goes at least! :-)

228. "He had felt her as an hourly evil, which was so much the worse, as there seemed no chance of its ceasing but with life; she seemed a part of himself that must be borne for ever. To be relieved from her, therefore, was so great a felicity that, had she not left bitter remembrances behind her, there might have been danger of his learning almost to approve the evil which produced such a good."
Quite understandable that Mrs Norris should arouse such extreme feelings.

229. "Could he have been satisfied with the conquest of one amiable woman's affections, could he have found sufficient exultation in overcoming the reluctance, in working himself into the esteem and tenderness of Fanny Price, there would have been every probability of success and felicity for him. His affection had already done something. Her influence over him had already given him some influence over her. Would he have deserved more, there can be no doubt that more would have been obtained"
I think his actions proved he was always going to be unfaithful, and I can't see that Fanny would have ever agreed to marry him, under any circumstances, however long he had persevered in his courtship, because she could never approve of his spoiled character. In other words, can anyone say wishful thinking?!?

230. "After settling her at Thornton Lacey with every kind attention to her comfort, the object of almost every day was to see her there, or to get her away from it."
Does the second part mean Sir Thomas had in mind for them to take the living at Mansfield, as will of course happen in the end? Or simply that he enjoyed their visits to their home?

Volume III, Chapter 17 / Chapter 48

222. I doubt she allowed her thoughts to go very far in that direction; not yet, anyway.

223. Still, we know from what was said of Yates when he was first introduced that he had never had much family life, or was used to thinking in those terms. In a way he's like Mary, recognising that (in spite of its faults) there's something in the way that things are done at Mansfield Park that is very different from his own experiences.

224. Yes, it was a fairly widely accepted precept at the time (certainly in religious terms) that suffering could be a positive experience, that it built character and brought people to focus upon what was really important in life. You're quite right in citing Marianne; she, like Tom, has flown through life, she by living on her emotions, he by going from good time to good time. Both of them are changed, and in particular in the manner stressed by Austen about Tom: not living merely for himself...

225. & 228. I might come back to these points in a bit more detail down below.

226. If only it were equally true! I'm afraid poor Maria bears the brunt of everything.

227. Again, poor Maria!

229. Not entirely wishful thinking, but I think to interpret this correctly we need to read between the lines of the conclusion of the passage you quote:

... especially when that marriage had taken place, which would have given him the assistance of her conscience in subduing her first inclination, and brought them very often together. Would he have persevered, and uprightly, Fanny must have been his reward, and a reward very voluntarily bestowed, within a reasonable period from Edmund's marrying Mary...

Despite the forecast of an eventual marriage between Fanny and Henry, I don't read that as her ever really caring for him; there are too many touches in the text telling us that she just wants to get away from him (e.g. the beginning of Chapter 48, She was returned to Mansfield Park, she was useful, she was beloved; she was safe from Mr Crawford...). Rather, it suggests to me that if Edmund had married Mary, Fanny simply would have given up the struggle; particularly since, as is implied, she would have considered continuing to care for Edmund after he was married as a great wrong on her part, needing to be "conquered".

230. Meaning that they were (at that time) repeatedly invited back to Mansfield Park. Eventually they do move to the Mansfield parsonage.

>111 RidgewayGirl: & >112 lyzard:

Alison, this final chapter addresses both of the points that you raised, first about the motive for Julia's elopement, then about the damage done to others by Maria's behaviour:

She had been allowing his attentions some time, but with very little idea of ever accepting him; and had not her sister's conduct burst forth as it did, and her increased dread of her father and of home, on that event, imagining its certain consequence to herself would be greater severity and restraint, made her hastily resolve on avoiding such immediate horrors at all risks, it is probable that Mr Yates would never have succeeded...

...

Mrs Norris, whose attachment seemed to augment with the demerits of her niece, would have had her received at home and countenanced by them all. Sir Thomas would not hear of it; and Mrs Norris's anger against Fanny was so much the greater, from considering her residence there as the motive. She persisted in placing his scruples to her account, though Sir Thomas very solemnly assured her that, had there been no young woman in question, had there been no young person of either sex belonging to him, to be endangered by the society or hurt by the character of Mrs Rushworth, he would never have offered so great an insult to the neighbourhood as to expect it to notice her...

So the first danger is to Fanny, as the only young woman in the picture; then to the other "young persons"; then to the neighbourhood.

Of course, the ending of Mansfield Park is notorious for driving people crazy! - how do people here feel about it?

There are two things that tend to get complained about most. One is that Austen spends the novel potentially setting up several outcomes that never come to pass; the other is the oblique, even slightly facetious way in which she deals with the coming together of Edmund and Fanny.

I don't personally have a problem with any of this, but I would be very interested to hear other opinions, particularly from those that do! To me, the way that Edmund and Fanny are handled goes back to what I was saying about Mansfield Park at the beginning , that this is *not* a marriage-plot-happy-ever-after novel, and that its real concerns are elsewhere.

At the end, the overriding thematic sense is the damage done by failure of duty and responsibility. Of its large cast of young people, only Edmund and Fanny escape more or less unscathed from their own upbringing - Edmund because he is a younger son*, Fanny ironically because she is overlooked and/or resented. Otherwise, Tom, Maria, Julia, Henry, Mary and even Yates all pay the price for failures on the part of the adults responsible for their upbringing.

(*A number of 19th century novels, most of them by women, deal with younger sons doing better under the system of primogeniture than their privileged older brothers - Elizabeth Gaskell's Wives And Daughters, for example.)

And so in this final chapter, we have Sir Thomas Bertram coming to a very belated realisation of just how badly he has failed as a parent. The banishment of Mrs Norris is also very significant. She becomes for Sir Thomas the embodiment of everything he has done wrong, every point at which he has failed, so that he simply cannot stand to have her around any more. We might wonder how much her "resolution" to quite Mansfield Park was really her own idea, and how far Sir Thomas was working for that.

Forgive the length of the quote, but I really feel this is what the novel is "about":

    These were the circumstances and the hopes which gradually brought their alleviation to Sir Thomas, deadening his sense of what was lost, and in part reconciling him to himself; though the anguish arising from the conviction of his own errors in the education of his daughters was never to be entirely done away.
    Too late he became aware how unfavourable to the character of any young people must be the totally opposite treatment which Maria and Julia had been always experiencing at home, where the excessive indulgence and flattery of their aunt had been continually contrasted with his own severity. He saw how ill he had judged, in expecting to counteract what was wrong in Mrs Norris by its reverse in himself; clearly saw that he had but increased the evil by teaching them to repress their spirits in his presence so as to make their real disposition unknown to him, and sending them for all their indulgences to a person who had been able to attach them only by the blindness of her affection, and the excess of her praise.
    Here had been grievous mismanagement; but, bad as it was, he gradually grew to feel that it had not been the most direful mistake in his plan of education. Something must have been wanting within, or time would have worn away much of its ill effect. He feared that principle, active principle, had been wanting; that they had never been properly taught to govern their inclinations and tempers by that sense of duty which can alone suffice. They had been instructed theoretically in their religion, but never required to bring it into daily practice. To be distinguished for elegance and accomplishments, the authorised object of their youth, could have had no useful influence that way, no moral effect on the mind. He had meant them to be good, but his cares had been directed to the understanding and manners, not the disposition; and of the necessity of self-denial and humility, he feared they had never heard from any lips that could profit them.
    Bitterly did he deplore a deficiency which now he could scarcely comprehend to have been possible. Wretchedly did he feel, that with all the cost and care of an anxious and expensive education, he had brought up his daughters without their understanding their first duties, or his being acquainted with their character and temper...

Well done, everyone!

And special thanks to Ilana for soldiering on through some difficult personal circumstances and asking such great questions. I always say that a tutored read lives or dies on the efforts of the tutee! :)

How about some final comments? I would very much like to hear reactions from those who hadn't read Mansfield Park before, or who had but perhaps changed their minds this time?

Thank you so much Liz, I enjoyed this tutorial as much as I always enjoy all your tutorials, and it was especially fun revisiting a novel I already liked, and getting to understand it more in depth.

I'll look forward to what others have to say!

Thank you Liz and Ilana! This was terrific. And I really like your highlighting that quote from Sir Thomas in >117 lyzard:. Fanny ended up having the qualities Sir Thomas hoped for, but failed to inspire and teach, in Maria and Julia.

I can't say I changed my mind, but I've had to work to appreciate Fanny in the past, and this tutorial has increased that appreciation. As to Tom, I made the same connection Ilana did in >114 Smiler69:, that like Marianne in S & S, he had been transformed by life-threatening illness.

There are readers (including Robert Rodi) who wish that Fanny had married Henry, and Edmund Mary, with the thought that both Henry and Mary would have been improved by it. I don't think so. IMO, Henry soon enough would have returned to his impetuous, promiscuous ways, making Fanny miserable and likely detesting himself for his nature. Similarly, Mary would have been miserable living in lesser (from her POV) circumstances, and would have made Edmund miserable with her cravings for something better.

*edited to fix the Edmunds*

Adding my thank yous to Liz and Ilana (and everyone else who has commented and added to the discussions). I've always liked Fanny but I think I appreciated MP in general more on this reread thanks to the discussions here - it's slower and more thoughtful than the earlier Austen novels.

I'm not confident that Henry would've been improved by Fanny either - at least not for long. I think Mary would've had a good shot at it with Edmund though. Her London friends were so influential. If she was away from them she might've learned to appreciate the kind of life she'd have with Edmund. (Or maybe that's only wishful thinking because I like Mary. :) )

I've never wanted the ending to be other than it was though. (I don't think. I couldn't stand Fanny or Edmund the first time I read it so maybe I'm revising.)

I did get over my last hurdle with MP this time around. I've always found Edmund an insufferably boring wet blanket but I found that if I imagined Hugh Grant (in stammering-sincere 4 Weddings mode) saying all his speeches, he became a much more likable and sympathetic character. I also found some of his anxiety over his feelings for Mary really comedic - esp. around the time of the play.

I also want to say thank you to Liz and Ilana - this has been such an interesting read! I got a lot more out of it than I would have without the thread.

As usual, a thoroughly entertaining tutorial. Congratulations to Ilana for asking such great and varied questions and to Liz for such thorough and interesting comments!

>117 lyzard: There are two things that tend to get complained about most. One is that Austen spends the novel potentially setting up several outcomes that never come to pass; the other is the oblique, even slightly facetious way in which she deals with the coming together of Edmund and Fanny.

This is the first time I've read MP. I enjoyed it a lot, especially with your explanations and "decoding", Liz. My only quibble with the ending is that it seems a bit rushed and tacked on. All of a sudden we learn the fates of Maria, Julia, Edmund, Fanny et al. through a helter-skelter narrative that spans years and just tells, without showing. As compared to the rest of the novel, with what seemed to me to be a normal exposition/dialogue type structure, it seemed rather a strange way to wrap it all up.

>122 madhatter22: I've always found Edmund an insufferably boring wet blanket but I found that if I imagined Hugh Grant (in stammering-sincere 4 Weddings mode) saying all his speeches, he became a much more likable and sympathetic character.

Ah, yes. Edmund reminds me a lot of Edward from Sense and Sensibility, a character I first got to know from Hugh Grant. It all fits.

>122 madhatter22: The 1999 movie version gives us a Mansfield Park with Jonny Lee Miller as Edmund and Frances O'Connor as Barely-Fanny. It's an interesting, although very loosely adapted version. Jonny Lee Miller made me like Edmund much more.

>127 RidgewayGirl: - I agree that it was "loosely" adapted, but it was much better than the 2007 version with Billie Piper. Whoever made that movie really didn't know what to do with MP!

>126 Nickelini: Me, too. I even got my Edward and my Edmund mixed up. :-)

Thank you, everyone! - particularly to those who added to the experience with comments and questions.

Personally I think that only people who dislike Fanny would want her to marry Henry Crawford. I can sort of picture things working out between Edmund and Mary, because there was a lot more genuine feeling there. However, it would depend upon what attitude Mary brought into the marriage---whether she chose to be discontented with what Edmund could give her, or whether she held onto that earlier feeling of appreciation for the Mansfield people, as opposed to her London acquaintance. Though of course all this presupposes that that final conversation between Edmund and Mary never took place.

But I cannot see any way in which a marriage between Fanny and Henry would work. There's so much selfishness and play-acting in his courtship even when he is supposedly at his most sincere, that it is hard to think otherwise than that marriage would be more of the same. You can picture him "playing" the devoted bridegroom for a few months, until he got bored, and then all the old habits would reassert themselves.

The positioning of the leading men - I won't say "heroes" - of Mansfield Park and Sense And Sensibility is another connection between them. Again, these are not marriage-plot books - they're not about the heroine picking the "right" man from a list of candidates - to the extent that it doesn't actually matter what we as readers think of Edmund or Edward. In each novel he is the only man the heroine wants or has ever really thought of in that respect, and that's the end of it. These novels' plots are not about Fanny and Elinor learning to judge correctly, but their about battles with circumstances and the restrictions, frustrations and rivalries that threaten to keep them from being happy---and how very grim and unhappy a business "duty" can be.

If you want a decent adaptation of Mansfield Park, you need the 1983 BBC series with Sylvestra Le Touzel and Nicholas Farrell.

Again, these are not marriage-plot books

I think that this realization is what helped me enjoy Mansfield Park more this time (this is all relative, of course, I love all of Austen's novels!). When I reread Sense and Sensibility last year I read an annotated version that really helped me discover the centrality of money to the plot over love. This opened up my eyes to looking for more than the love story in her books. I think because of how much I love Pride and Prejudice, I always want Austen's books to be romances, but they really aren't all primarily that. I came away from Mansfield Park content with Fanny and Edmund (though I still don't love his transfer of affections) because I can think of the book as more about other issues. I see this book almost as a lesson in parenting now.

I have to add my thanks to Liz and Ilana for this thread. It's been so much fun, once again.

I also have to say a big kudos to the whole group -- unless I missed it, no one made the annoying complaint that I hear all the time about Mansfield Park: "but they're cousins!" Yes, yes they are. And so were Darcy and Anne de Bourgh (and no one seemed to object to that pairing except Darcy, of course), and major characters in Bleak House, Jane Eyre, and umpteen other 19th century novels. But somehow I only hear this complaint about MP. So thanks, group, for not making me get all up and crazy about that point. Because we are a great group of 19th century lit lovers who know our stuff, right!

Right! :D

(I would only add that cousin-marriage was common in Britain AND America well into the 1930s, and probably fell out of favour post-WWII as a result of women taking more control of their lives and gaining a wider circle of acquaintances through study and work. The now-existent taboo is a very recent invention.)

>133 lyzard: Thanks for that!

The topic does remind me of a true-crime book I read back in the 1990s. I've forgotten all of it, except for the opening line, which said something like, "It was one of those counties in rural Missouri where a family reunion was a chance to meet women." Twenty years later and it still makes me laugh.

:D

These days the situation does tend to carry the redneck-inbred connotation, but in fact for centuries cousin-marriage operated chiefly at the other end of the social scale, and was encouraged as a way of keeping money and property in the family. Also, a girl wasn't chaperoned around a male cousin as she would be around any other young man, and so had a good chance to actually get to know him.

>135 lyzard: See, that's just so logical. Thank you for that historical detail. But people start talking about MP and then I hear "Oh, I just couldn't get past the cousins thing." (Insert eye rolling here--you're comment would be better and I'm making note for next time I hear or read that).

>136 Nickelini: Clearly they're not into genealogy. I'm related to myself at least 12 different ways, all because of those darn cousins. And don't even get me started on all the people who married their stepparent's siblings. Not blood relatives or even squicky, but still makes the family tree look lumpy.

Also, my rural Missouri family is really just three families who continually intermarried for five or six generations. So the family reunion thing is spot on! :)

>137 casvelyn: I'm related to myself at least 12 different ways, all because of those darn cousins. And don't even get me started on all the people who married their stepparent's siblings.

We must be related! My mother's (Indiana) side of the family tree is the same way. Edmund and Fanny would fit right in!

>138 cbl_tn: Considering I'm a Hoosier and my family's been here for over 200 years, it's entirely possible. What part of Indiana are your people from?

Thank you so much for all the hard work Liz and Ilana! I've enjoyed it and learned a lot. This is my first read of Mansfield Park. I'll look for the 1983 BBC production.

Fanny, however, will never be one of my favorite characters. She lost me forever in Chapter 29 quoted in >56 Smiler69::

155. "Fanny's disposition was such that she could never even think of her aunt Norris in the meagreness and cheerlessness of her own small house, without reproaching herself for some little want of attention to her when they had been last together"

With that single sentence, I flashed back to the Sunday School books inflicted on me in the 60's, with the unbelievably perfect good little girls and boys. As a child, I was (and still am) much more drawn to characters like Anne Shirley or Laura Ingalls who may have the best of intentions, but weren't always able to follow through with them.

While I reluctantly have to agree that Henry and Fanny would not be a good match -- she simply does not like him and no marriage would work for long with one devoted to someone who dislikes them. The idea of the reformed rake is an established one, but who would remain reformed long in the face of indifference? Not to mention the more important factor that no one should be forced into marrying someone they dislike and mistrust. I just had the impression of Henry as an outrageously charming man and I like that. But Fanny doesn't.

On the other hand, Edmund needs someone like Mary to keep him from becoming a dour stick in the mud. Can't you see he and Fanny sitting by the fireside of an evening discussing their parishioners' various sins and shortcomings? Mary could have reminded him to laugh. And Mary is good-hearted. With Edmund steady by her side, she'd grow into someone well loved in the parish. I will never give up my conviction that that match would have been a solid and loving one! As for her rash comments to Edmund after Henry and Maria had run off, I think she was panicked and terrified and trying to pretend things could be repaired. And Edmund reacted badly.

Thank you, Lyzard and Smiler69. You both did a wonderful job of shepherding us through Mansfield Park.

>141 RidgewayGirl: Such an interesting perspective. I didn't think of it like that at all, but you make a lot of sense. Henry--to me--is just a scoundrel. I just didn't trust anything nice he said.

Can't you see he and Fanny sitting by the fireside of an evening discussing their parishioners' various sins and shortcomings? Yes, now that you mention it!

>140 streamsong: I flashed back to the Sunday School books inflicted on me in the 60's, with the unbelievably perfect good little girls and boys.

Ah, yes. They drove me crazy. Also the children from Golden Books.

>141 RidgewayGirl: I can totally see Mary as panicky in that last scene with Edmund. And I agree - they could've been good for each other. (And then if their marriage led to Fanny marrying Henry, as one passage suggested it might, well, Fanny's used to self-sacrifice. She'll be fine :) )

>140 streamsong:

I think you're being a little unfair there, Janet. Yes, Fanny has the thought, but there's no indication she does anything about it. The next sentence in the novel isn't, "The next time Fanny saw Mrs Norris, she took pains to be more attentive to her." In fact, I'd say Fanny is doing exactly what you say you like Anne Shirley and Laura Ingalls for---having good intentions but not following through.

>141 RidgewayGirl:

But you're not taking into consideration that the wife of a minister had a lot of parish duties, and often worked very hard. Can you really imagine Mary attending church up to nine times a week? Visiting the poor and the sick? Running a Sunday school? Organising sewing-bees to make clothing for poor children? Or, for that matter, "sitting by the fireside of an evening discussing their parishioners' various sins and shortcomings", which was also part of ministerial duty. You didn't get "well-loved in the parish" just by being bright and charming, but by making a solid contribution. I struggle to picture Mary in that role---a role which Edmund would certainly expect his wife to fill.

Mary's comments to Edmund aren't "rash"---at least, they are in the sense of foolhardy, but not in the sense that they were made of the spur of the moment, or without consideration. Mary invites Edmund to come and see her, so she's had time to think about what she's going to say to him:

... before he had been able to speak one intelligible sentence, she had introduced the subject in a manner which he owned had shocked him. "'I heard you were in town,' said she; 'I wanted to see you. Let us talk over this sad business. What can equal the folly of our two relations?'... "She saw it only as folly, and that folly stamped only by exposure...it was the detection, not the offence, which she reprobated..."

I don't see any panic or terror there; I do see a fundamental misunderstanding of the person she's speaking to.

>142 Nickelini:

Okay, that's just sadistic! :D

>139 casvelyn: Kind of all over the eastern and central part of the state. They eventually settled in Howard, Tipton, Marion, and Hamilton Counties, but before that were in Delaware, Henry, Rush, Johnson, Franklin, and Boone.

>141 RidgewayGirl: Can't you see he and Fanny sitting by the fireside of an evening discussing their parishioners' various sins and shortcomings?

I had the same thought, and I like Fanny!

>145 cbl_tn: Aww darn... mine are all from the south: Dearborn and Knox Counties.

>145 cbl_tn: I always think of my Dad's side of the family as an Illinois family, but some were in Knox, Clay, and Parke County, Indiana. My mother's side of the family is where all the cousin marriages are, though.

I feel that the end came quite suddenly between Edmund and Mary. I risk wrath of all LTers out there to say: maybe Austen could have written the falling out a little more firmly. But I think we're looking at this from the perspectives of people in the 21st century. Contemporaries would not consider Mary's thoughts about the affair acceptable, even in light of her being flustered and unprepared for the conversation, which she wasn't, as >144 lyzard: pointed out.

>148 The_Hibernator: I wonder if Austen's gliding over some of the scenes we'd most like to witness have to to with her writing more of a cutting social commentary than a romance novel. We're looking at the couples and she's illuminating the social hypocrises of England in the early nineteenth century.

>148 The_Hibernator: & >149 RidgewayGirl:

Yes, I think you're both right there. Even though we have discussed the fact that Mansfield Park is not "a romance", it can be very difficult to stop yourself measuring its actions by the preconceptions we bring to a romantic novel.

Austen chooses not to show us the scene between Edmund and Mary directly, but rather gives us Edmund's account of it, so there is room left for the reader to put their own interpretation upon how it really played out.

Dear Liz (and other group members), THANK YOU! What a treat this thread was. I listened to (and read) Mansfield Park, and was able to follow along with the discussions as I read, though not in time to participate. This tutored read brought the book and the time period to vivid life, and I got so much more meaning and enjoyment out of it than had I been going it alone. I almost feel like I could receive graduate credit for having read these threads along with the book (and Liz, you would certainly deserve to be paid)! Liz and Ilana, I am so grateful for your generosity.

Thank you, Anne, that's lovely!

Today's mail included the annual volume of Persuasions for 2014. Many of the essays in the volume are based on sessions at the 2014 Annual General Meeting of the Jane Austen Society of North America, which had a Mansfield Park theme. Lots of good stuff in this issue!

Bringing up

Really appreciated this thread Liz. Must say I was right with Fanny when she turned down Henry. I didn't trust him at all and was glad she saw right through him. And I can't say I was surprised that she ended up marrying Edmund. I really enjoyed the book. I listened to Juliet Stevenson's incredible narration while I read so it was a wonderful experience. I highly recommend that for anyone. Thanks for all the work that went into this thread.

>155 brenzi: I love Stevenson's narrations--isn't her Lady Bertram the best?! I have Stevenson's audiobooks of all 6 Austen novels, Jane Eyre, Middlemarch, Daniel Deronda and Gaskell's North and South. This last one is my current audiobook read and her rendering of the northern dialect is amazing.

>156 kac522: Oh I didn't realize she'd done North and South which I read and loved earlier this year. I'll do that when I reread.

I listened to Stevenson and also read Daniel Deronda in April and she was absolutely wonderful.

Thanks, Bonnie!

Audiobooks aren't my thing, so I haven't listened to them myself, but I have never heard anything but the highest praise for Juliet Stevenson's work.

>158 lyzard: They are really helpful when you're struggling with local dialect, as in North and South. It looks like gobbledy-gook on the page, but when Stevenson reads it, I understand every word.