Humorous or Desperate?

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Humorous or Desperate?

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1LesMiserables
Jul 4, 2013, 7:38 pm

Around where I stay we have a couple of Christian (Protestant) churches that have the following signs/ads...

Church #1 - Ad in local paper: Come to 'X' Church; the Church for people who don't go to church.

Church #2 - On the signage on lawn in front of Church; The 'X' Church; Services 11am Sundays - Mainly Singing.

------------------------

I mean come on!

2pinkozcat
Jul 5, 2013, 3:00 am

There is nothing wrong with a choral service. I used to attend one every Sunday when I was at Boarding school. Four hymns, a psalm and the Nicean Creed and Gloria. If it was an evening service there was the Magnificat.

It all went at a cracking pace and was great fun. That was back in the 1950s so there is nothing new about it. The rector had a magnificent voice and there was a well-trained choir.

3Helcura
Jul 5, 2013, 3:19 am

I say sense of humor - I've encountered quite a lot of people who would admit privately that they really go to church for the singing. I know that was my favorite part as a kid - I love the "guitar masses."

4Booksloth
Jul 5, 2013, 6:44 am

Sorry - I would say desparation. These people are so desparate to replenish their dwindling congregations that they have to attempt to do it by pretending that religion has nothing to do with religion. It's pathetic. Not unlike the god botherers who knock on your door (I had one here less than an hour ago) and try to engage you in argument while using every possible trick to avoid saying they have anything to do with any church and being too embarrassed to admit which one it is. I do hope people don't fall for this kind of nonsense because it's no different from the cults that attract newcomers by offering friendship and sing-songs then hit them with religion once they're a part of the group.

5LesMiserables
Jul 5, 2013, 7:18 am

>>4 Booksloth:

I agree that desperation is the issue here. We had the JW at the door last year and they try and avoid identifying themselves as missionaries. I normally insist immediately on unmasking themselves and then I unmask myself simultaneously. It always short and amicable: no mutual timewasting.

6Amtep
Jul 5, 2013, 3:56 pm

I'm just looking at this from the outside, but I think there's a real need in the US for an organization that replaces the social aspects of church while dropping the religion. So why not be up front about it?

7paradoxosalpha
Editado: Jul 5, 2013, 5:52 pm

> 6

Well, what is the generic nature of the "religion" that you want to drop, and how much like "church" should the social aspects of its replacement be?

There are certainly many organizations that fit that bill, depending on the particulars. I mean, there's Unitarian Universalists, Ethical Humanists, Rotary, Lions Clubs, book clubs, Star Trek fan locals, ... the list is practically endless. To argue that there is "a real need" seems to overlook the fact that there's a considerable supply.

8LesMiserables
Jul 5, 2013, 6:02 pm

>7 paradoxosalpha:
I agree. It seems to suggest that we need something other than religion @ the institutional level @ to keep the delusion of an afterlife going.

9jbbarret
Jul 5, 2013, 6:12 pm

I usually go to the pub.

10LesMiserables
Jul 5, 2013, 6:22 pm

Yes. I don't see how the Unitarians fit into the list of alternatives. For me they prolong the delusion.

11paradoxosalpha
Jul 5, 2013, 8:34 pm

> 10

Well, like I said, it depends on what you choose to isolate as the "religious" element. I guess I've studied religions enough to know that they don't have a single delusion in common, and I've dealt with human beings sufficiently to know that religion isn't a necessary condition for being deluded.

12LesMiserables
Jul 5, 2013, 10:00 pm

> 11

Well I have always admired Ninian Smart's work in the area of encapsulating shared themes.

Ritual: Forms and orders of ceremonies (private and/or public) (often regarded as revealed)

Narrative and Mythic: stories (often regarded as revealed) that work on several levels. Sometimes narratives fit together into a fairly complete and systematic interpretation of the universe and human's place in it.

Experiential and emotional: dread, guilt, awe, mystery, devotion, liberation, ecstasy, inner peace, bliss (private)

Social and Institutional: belief system is shared and attitudes practiced by a group. Often rules for identifying community membership and participation (public)

Ethical and legal: Rules about human behavior (often regarded as revealed from supernatural realm)

Doctrinal and philosophical: systematic formulation of religious teachings in an intellectually coherent form

Material: ordinary objects or places that symbolize or manifest the sacred or supernatural

-----------------------------

For me they all have one thing in common - a belief, whether or not openly admitted to, that they believe or yearn for an afterlife in a spiritual sense and not just some dissemination of atoms. The fact that atheists would become involved in Unitarian churches as part of a congregation, shows to me that they are not atheists.

13rathad
Jul 5, 2013, 10:22 pm

I always get curious whenever someone states something about what Unitarians believe. The attraction for me was that they had no dogma and it was up to the individual to establish their own beliefs. Now that was 30+ years back but I doubt they have changed that much.
Biggest debate I remember was what to call that big building we met in, no one liked calling it a church.

14Booksloth
Jul 7, 2013, 6:04 am

#12 I argue elsewhere - http://www.librarything.com/topic/155893 - that the central tenet of any religion is a faith in the supernatural. Faith is the act of believing, despite all the evidence, in that which cannot and has never been proven. I think that is an essential addition to Smart's list.

#13 I have very little personal experience of Unitarianism so I can't comment on what they do or don't believe but I would argue that the very idea that 'it was up to the individual to establish their own beliefs suggests at least 'belief' as opposed to 'disbelief'. To me, this is laughable - either there is are god/are gods and they have some objective qualities in common or gods don't exist at all. This notion that you get to make up your own god is on the far side of crazy. One of the best arguments against these entities is that nobody can argee on what they are.

15rathad
Jul 7, 2013, 9:47 am

Had I stated ...own beliefs, or non beliefs...been less laughable. Maybe it is still agnostic, but I do not believe in a god. That is a belief. It is a leap to then bring god into it. Dogma and god are not the same.

16rathad
Jul 7, 2013, 9:53 am

http://www.uua.org/beliefs/principles/

Here is a little something from the Unitarians site which might explain things a bit better.

17quicksiva
Editado: Ago 4, 2013, 10:09 am

Some Unitarians of Note:
A
Francis Ellingwood Abbot (1836–1903) Unitarian minister who led a group that attempted to liberalize the Unitarian constitution and preamble. He would go on to help found the Free Religious Association.
Abigail Adams (1744–1818) women's rights advocate and first Second Lady and the second First Lady of the United States
James Luther Adams (1901–1994) Unitarian theologian.
John Adams (1735–1826)4 Second President of the United States.
John Quincy Adams (1767–1848)4 Sixth President of the United States.
Conrad Aiken (1889–1973) Poet.
Louisa May Alcott (1832–1888)4 Author of Little Women.
Ethan Allen (1738–1789) Author of Reason the Only Oracle of Man, and the chief source of Hosea Ballou's universalist ideas.
Arthur J. Altmeyer (1891–1972) Father of Social Security.
Susan B. Anthony (1820–1906) Unitarian, also a Quaker
B
E. Burdette Backus (1888–1955) Unitarian Humanist minister (originally a Universalist)
• Dr.Sara Josephine Baker (1873–1945) Physician and public health worker.
Emily Greene Balch (1867–1961) Nobel Peace Laureate
Roger Nash Baldwin (1884–1981), founder of ACLU
Adin Ballou (1803–1890) Abolitionist and former Baptist who became a Universalist minister, then a Unitarian minister.
• Hosea Ballou (1771–1852) American Universalist leader. (Universalist minister and a Unitarian in theology)
• John Bardeen (1908–1991) Physicist, Nobel Laureate 1956 (inventing the transistor) and in 1972 (superconductivity)
Phineas Taylor Barnum (1810–1891) American showman and Circus Owner
• Ysaye Maria Barnwell (1946-) - member of Sweet Honey in the Rock, founded the Jubilee Singers, a choir at All Souls Church, Unitarian in Washington, DC.
Béla Bartok (1881–1945) Composer.
Clara Barton (1821–1912) organizer of American Red Cross, Universalist
Alexander Graham Bell l(1847–1922) Inventor of the Telephone.
Tim Berners-Lee (1955-) inventor of the World Wide Web.
John Biddle (1615–1662) minister, called the "Father of English Unitarianism"
Paul Blanshard (1892–1980) Activist.
• Chester Bliss Bowles (1901–1986) Connecticut Governor and diplomat.
Ray Bradbury (1920-) Author.
Anne Bronte (1820-1849) British novelist, who advanced Universalist salvation in her novel The Tenant of Wildfell Hall
Olympia Brown (1835–1926) suffragist, Universalist minister
• Percival Brundage (1892–1979) technocrat
• Rev. John A. Buehrens - president of the Unitarian Universalist Association from 1993-200114
Ralph Wendell Burhoe (1911–1997)scholar
• Harold Hitz Burton (1888–1964) U.S. Supreme Court Justice 1945-1958
C
John C. Calhoun (1782–1850)
Neville Chamberlain (1869–1940)
Walter Bradford Cannon (1871–1945) Experimental physiologist
William Ellery Channing (1780–1842) Unitarian who later identified himself as an "independent Christian"
• Charles Chauncy (1592–1672) Unitarian Congregationalist minister.
• Brock Chisholm (1896–1971) Director, World Health Organization
• Andrew Inglis Clark (1848–1907) Tasmanian politician. Responsible for the adoption of the Hare-Clark system of proportional representation by the Parliament of Tasmania
Grenville Clark (1882–1931) Author
• Joseph S. Clark (1901–1990) US Senator and mayor of Philadelphia
• Laurel Clark (1961–2003) US Navy officer and NASA Astronaut who died in the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster
Stanley Cobb (1887–1968) Neurologist and psychiatrist
William Cohen (b. 1940) U.S. Secretary of Defense (1997–2001), U.S. Senator from Maine (1979–1997)
Henry Steele Commager (1902–1998) American historian and biographer of Theodore Parker
Kent Conrad (b. 1948) U.S. Senator from North Dakota (1992- )
• William David Coolidge (1873–1975) Inventor, physician, research director
Norman Cousins (1915–1990) Editor and writer, Unitarian friend
E. E. Cummings (1894–1962) Poet and painter
D
• Cyrus Dallin (1861–1944) American sculptor
• Ferenc Dávid (often rendered Francis David) (1510–1579) Hungarian-Transylvanian priest, minister and bishop, first to use the word "Unitarian" to describe his faith
• George de Benneville (1703–1793) Universalist
Morris Dees (b. 1936) Attorney, cofounder, chief legal counsel of Southern Poverty Law Center
• Karl W. Deutsch (1912–1992) International political scientist
John Dewey (1859–1952) Author of A Common Faith, Unitarian friend
Charles Dickens (1812–1870) English novelist.
John H. Dietrich (1878–1957)is called the "Father of Religious Humanism
• James Drummond Dole (1877–1958) Entrepreneur
Emily Taft Douglas (1899–1994) US Representative, Illinois
Paul Douglas (1892–1976) US Senator, also a Quaker
• Madelyn Dunham (1922-2008) Grandmother of U.S. President Barack Obama
• Stanley Armour Dunham (1918-1992) Grandfather of Barack Obama
• Stanley Ann Dunham (1942-1995) Mother of Barack Obama
E
Richard Eddy (1828–1906) Minister and author of 1886 book Universalism in America.
Charles William Eliot (1834–1926) Landscape architect
Samuel Atkins Eliot (1862–1950) First president of the Unitarians
Thomas H. Eliot (1907–1991) Legislator and educator
Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803–1882) Unitarian minister and Transcendentalist
William Emerson MIT dean of architecture
F
Sophia Lyon Fahs (1876–1978) Liberal religious educator
Joseph L. Fisher (1914–1992) Joseph Lyman (Joe) Fisher (1914 – 1992) U.S. Congress man
Robert Fulghum (1937-) UU minister and writer
Buckminster Fuller (1895–1983)
Margaret Fuller (1810-1850) Feminist, writer, literary critic. Published the feminist classic, Woman in the Nineteenth Century, in 1845.
G
Elizabeth Gaskell (1810–1865) British novelist and social reformer
Frank Gannett (1876–1957) Newspaper publisher
Eleanor Gordon (1852–1942) Minister and member of the Iowa Sisterhood.
Mike Gravel (1930-) U.S. Senator; 2008 Democratic and Libertarian Presidential candidate
Dana Greeley (1908–1986) The first president of the Unitarian Universalist Association
Horace Greeley (1811–1872) Universalist
• Chester Greenwood (1858–1937) inventor
Gary Gygax (1938–2008) game designer and creator of Dungeons and Dragons, called himself a Christian, "albeit one that is of the Arian (Unitarian) persuasion."
edit H
• Ellen L. Hamilton (1921–1996). Artist, author, advocate for homeless teens, and member of UUA Board of Trustees (1973–1977).
Donald S. Harrington (1914–2005)
Charles Hartshorne (1897–2000) theologian
John Hayward philosopher of religion and the arts
• Lotta Hitschmanova (1909–1990) founder, Unitarian Service Committee of Canada
Jessica Holmes cast member of "Air Farce".
John Holmes (1904–1962) poet
Julia Ward Howe (1819–1910) author of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic".
• Roman Hruska (1904–1999) conservative Republican Senator from Nebraska
J
Thomas Jefferson (1743–1826) Third President of the USA,Unitarian
Joseph Johnson (publisher)
K
György Kepes (1906–2001) visual artist
Thomas Starr King (1824–1864) minister who during his career served both in Universalist and in Unitarian churches
James R. Killian president of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology
W.M. Kiplinger (1891–1967) publisher of the Kiplinger Letters
• Abner Kneeland (1774–1844) Universalist minister and denominational leader who, after leaving the denomination to become a leader in the freethought movement, was convicted and jailed for blasphemy.
edit L
William L. Langer (1896–1977) historian of diplomacy
Margaret Laurence (1926–1987) Author
Alfred McClung Lee sociologist
• Viola Liuzzo (1925–1965) civil-rights martyr
Arthur Lismer (1885–1969) Canadian painter, educator
Mary Livermore (1820–1905) Universalist
Arthur Lovejoy founder of the History of Ideas movement
M
John P. Marquand (1893–1960) author
Bernard Maybeck (1862–1957) architect
Scotty McLennan, Dean for Religious Life at Stanford University, Minister of Stanford Memorial Church, and inspiration for the Reverend Scot Sloan character in the comic strip Doonesbury
Robert Millikan Nobel Laureate in Physics 1923 for determining the charge of the electron, taught at CalTech in Pasadena CA
• Walt Minnick (1942-) Politician and representative for Idaho's 1st congressional district, United States House of Representatives
Ashley Montagu anthropologist and social biologist
Christopher Moore founder of Chicago’s Children’s Choir
Mary Carr Moore composer, teacher, Far Western activist for American Music
Arthur E. Morgan human engineer and college president
John Murray (1741–1815) Universalist minister and leader
N
• Maurine Neuberger (1907–2000) US Senator
Paul Newman (1925–2008) Actor, film director
O
Origen (185-254) Ancient Christian scholar
Mary White Ovington (1865–1951) NAACP founder
P
Bob Packwood (b. 1932) U.S. Senator from Oregon (1969–1995)
• David Park West coast painter.
Theodore Parker (1810–1860) Unitarian minister and transcendentalist
Linus Pauling (1901–1994) Nobel Laureate for Peace and for Chemistry
Randy Pausch (1960–2008) Computer Science Professor at Carnegie Mellon University, Author of "The Last Lecture"
Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin astronomer and astrophysicist.
• William T. Pheiffer, American lawyer/politician
William Pickering space explorer
Daniel Pinkham Composer
Van Rensselaer Potter global bioethicist
Joseph Priestley (1733–1804) discoverer of oxygen and Unitarian minister
George Pullman (1831–1897) Universalist
R
• Mary Jane Rathbun Marine zoologist
• Desmond Ravenstone writer, educator and sexual freedom activist
• James Reeb’’ (1927–1965) civil-rights martyr
• Curtis W. Reese Religious Humanist
Christopher Reeve (1952–2004) Unitarian Universalist
• James Relly (c.1722–1778) Universalist
Paul Revere (1735–1818)
David Ricardo (1772–1823) British classical economist noted for creating the concept of comparative advantage
Malvina Reynolds (1900–1978) Songwriter / singer / activist
Elliot Richardson (1920–1999) often listed as "Anglican" but was a member of a UU church near Washington DC for many years Lawyer and public servant
Mark Ritchie(b. 1951) Minnesota Secretary of State (2007-)
Benjamin Rush (1745–1813) Very active in the Universalist movement, although never technically joined a Universalist congregation
S
Mary Safford (1851–1927) Unitarian Minister and leader of the Iowa Sisterhood.
Leverett Saltonstall (1892–1979) U.S. Senator from Massachusetts
May Sarton Poet
• Ellery Schempp (1940-), Physicist who is also famous for being the primary student involved in the landmark 1963 United States Supreme Court case of Abington School District v. Schempp which declared that public school-sanctioned Bible readings were unconstitutional.
Arthur Schlesinger (1917–2007) American historian
Richard Schultes Explorer of the Amazon jungle
William F. Schulz - former Executive Director of Amnesty International USA, former president of the Unitarian Universalist Association
Albert Schweitzer (1875–1965) late in life unitarian; honorary member of the Church of the Larger Fellowship (Unitarian Friend)
Pete Seeger (b. 1919) Folk singer and song writer
Roy Wood Sellars Philosopher of religious humanism
Rod Serling (1924–1975) Writer; Creator of The Twilight Zone television series.
Michael Servetus (1511–1553) proto-unitarian
• Lemuel Shaw A Unitarian and Chief Justice of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court. Under his leadership, the court convicted Abner Kneeland, a former Universalist, of blasphemy.
Herbert A. Simon Nobel Laureate in Economics 1978, Artificial intelligence pioneer
• Rev. William G. Sinkford (b. 1946) - seventh president of the Unitarian Universalist Association48
Faustus Socinus 1539–1604) an Italian theologian and founder of the school of Christian thought known as "Socinianism" and the main theologian of Polish Brethren
Catherine Helen Spence - Australian suffragette and political reformer
• Pete Stark, D.-Calif. (1931—): U.S. Representative.
Vilhjalmur Stefansson (1879–1962) Arctic explorer and champion of Native American rights
Adlai Stevenson (1900–1965) Illinois governor, and Democratic Presidential candidate in 1952 and 1956
Dirk Jan Struik (1894–2000) mathematician
T
William Howard Taft (1857–1930), President of the United States (1909–1913)
V
Kurt Vonnegut (1922–2007), writer
W
Caroline Farrar Ware Historian and social activist
Daniel Webster (1782–1852)15
Dawud Wharnsby (b. 1972) Poet, singer and songwriter (Unitarian Universalist and Muslim)
• Alfred T. White (1846–1921) Housing reformer and philanthropist
Alfred North Whitehead Philosopher (Unitarian Friend)
Willis Rodney Whitney The "Father of Basic Research in Industry"
David Rhys Williams (1890--1970) Unitarian minister.
Edward Williams (bardic name Iolo Morganwg) 1747 –1826) an influential Welsh antiquarian, , poet, collector, and literary forger.
William Carlos Williams (1883–1963) Physician and author
Samuel Williston Dean of America's legal profession.
Edwin H. Wilson Unitarian Humanist leader
• Theodore Paul Wright Aeronautical engineer
Frank Lloyd Wright (1867–1959) Among Wright's architectural works were Unity Temple in Oak Park, Illinois, and First Unitarian Society in Madison, Wisconsin
Quincy Wright Author of A Study of War
Sewall Wright Evolutionary theorist.
N.C. Wyeth (1882–1945) Illustrator and painter
Y
John II Sigismund Zápolya (1540–1570) King of Hungary, then Prince of Transylvania.