Hear comes the Templar question?

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Hear comes the Templar question?

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1ahystorian
Abr 29, 2007, 5:17pm

Mensagem removida pelo autor.

2ahystorian
Abr 29, 2007, 5:18pm

What do you think about the ideological connection between the early masons and the dregs of the defunct templars?

3seyer
Maio 22, 2007, 7:21pm

What are the sources for knowing the "ideologies" of either of these groups? The form of the question implies that there is such a connection, but if so, what are the main contours of the connection and what are the sources for this information?

4ahystorian
Maio 31, 2007, 4:28pm

I don't know. That's what I was asking. There does seem to be a mythological connection in the popular imagination, especially in a physical sense. I seriously doubt that there is a physical continuity between the Templars and the Freemasons. If there is a 'form' to my question it is to exclude that possibilitiy rather than to suggest that there is an ideological connection. Mainly I was just trying to stoke some conversation in this otherwise dead forum.
However, if you are hinting to know my views, I do see a 'similarity' between Masonic symbolism and many older traditions such as parts of Rosecrusian philosophy, Gnostic and Orthodox Christianity, ancient Mystery cultic initiations, etc., and perhaps the Templars. Again, I doubt if there is a continuity between any of these and Freemasonry. But, I really don't know. I would lean towards thinking that these were ideas that the Enlightenment era fathers of Freemasonry incorporated into that organization. I am really not an expert on the Templars, and am not certain what, if any, ideology they had. But, there does seem to be a perpetuation of a body of mystic symbolism that reaches from Freemasonry back to at least the early days of the current era. How was this?

5seyer
Jun 9, 2007, 10:33pm

I could answer better if you could say what the similarities are. I think there are some, but reading your post I am concerned that we aren't seeming the same similarities. Try to be more specific about the shared ideas, symbols, actions, modes. The details will reveal much!

6Naren559
Set 6, 2007, 9:33pm

Mensagem removida pelo autor.

7Naren559
Editado: Fev 11, 2008, 3:14pm

Like in all mythology, we seem to "want" a connection as it flatters our sense of excluciveness. The Hiramic legend is, I think, sufficient for cultivating a myth

8johnlilburnfreemason
Dez 31, 2007, 8:07pm

I'm going to "wade in" on the "Templar Question" and Freemasonry - a topic which I have studied for many years. I have never found a credible connection in a historical sense. The "Oration" of the Chevalier Ramsey in 1737 before the Grand Lodge of France (whether he wrote it or delivered it is open to question) is the source of the "chevalric" connection as far as I'm concerned. The next step was the creation of "Templar" themes and degrees, largely developed by and through the Rite of Strict Observance under Baron Von Hund. It was all downhill from there.

9HilaryEvans83
Maio 1, 2010, 5:05pm

This is my first post on librarything, so if I do it wrong, please forgive me. I have always considered myself an interested outsider on Freemasons and any other historical and mystical groups (ie. Templars, Rosicrucians, the Golden Dawn, Alchemists, Cathars, Druids, all the way back to the practitioners of ancient Egyptian magic and the guardians of the so-called "Ancient Mysteries". So far, I have not seen any concrete proof, but I am not willing to say some of the certain groups are not connected. I think they very possibly could be. However, I do see many connections between beliefs and rituals of the various groups. That's been the topic I've been researching for a while....mostly for fun but also because I'd love to write on the topic one day. A lot of the different groups are based on gnostic ideas (some of the groups acknowledge this...others do not). But, a common thread for all the groups is knowledge, improving oneself, having a personal connection with God (or gods), and some sort of mystic ideas and rituals. I think it would be fascinating if the groups were re awakenings of each other throughout history, but I would need a lot more facts before I could even begin to make that assumption. But, the young branch of the Masons are called the Order of DeMolay after the leader of the Templars who was brutally and publicly executed, the Rosslyn Chapel in Scotland built by William de St. Clair has both Masonic and Templar imagery, and certain degree of masonry and honorary orders are based on Templar history. So, even if there isn't a direct connection, some of the symbols and rituals were based on the Templars, as well as other groups (such as the Rosicrucians and Alchemists, especially). So, yeah...even if there is no connection between any members of the two groups, there is a definite ideological connection. As a history buff, I am thankful for that...any group that keep various kinds of knowledge alive earns my respect. And since this is my first post, hello everyone, and I look forward to many discussions on here.

10paradoxosalpha
Maio 2, 2010, 3:55pm

The hypothesis of Templar origins for Freemasonry has been renewed over time. For an overview of this issue from the skeptical viewpoint, Peter Partner's The Murdered Magicians is quite useful, despite its occasional flaws when it treats 20th-century groups.

The advocates of the Templar hypothesis can be usefully split into two phases. The 19th-century crowd--e.g. John Yarker's Arcane Schools--tends to base their accounts on testimonies internal to the rites and initiatory traditions, whereas the 20th-century renewal of the hypothesis--for which Robinson's Born in Blood is paradigmatic--makes greater use of further historical contextualization. In Robinson's case, the 1318 English "peasant revolt" creates a new basis for considering the hypothesis. Other, less impressive, approaches are rooted in the work of the Holy Blood, Holy Grail authors and their derivatives and imitators, who are all (at greater or lesser remove) victims of a French neo-monarchist hoax.

For myself, while I admire the vigor and endurance of the Templar myth within the various Masonic rites, I see no reason to suppose any historical continuity from Templarism to Masonry. The various causes and contexts discussed in Stevenson's Origins of Freemasonry seem to be amply sufficient to account for the Masonic tradition's independent genesis.

11Naren559
Maio 21, 2010, 12:45pm

In that York Rite Masonry emphasizes Christianity, the Knights Templar being an ultimate goal in the Rite, I can see where the more conservative Christian Masons would be proselytizing the more "exclusive" Templar ism; whereas the Scottish Rite is more inclusive, welcoming Jews, Buddhists, Mohammedans, even Unitarians.

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