Railroad folklore book

I've just got hold of a superb book - A Treasury of Railroad Folklore edited by B A Botkin and Alvin F Harlow. The sub-title sums it up: "The stories, tall tales, traditions, ballads and songs of the American railroad". After I've had time to delve into its 500+ pages a bit I'll write more.

US railroads are not my primary interest, but I was trying to track down a piece of US railroad slang and I posted a query on a discussion board, www.railroad.net (which seems to be a very good well-moderated site), and got several useful replies (including one from a bloke inviting me to fire his steam loco next time I'm in the USA). They eventually led me to this out of print book, which I ordered via Amazon.

John

I agree...Botkin and Harlow did a wonderful book, and I am delighted that you discovered it over there.

Checking railroad net now for your discussion. Somehow in my moves I lost track of that group.

Dave in Duluth

I still haven't found exactly what I'm looking for. Maybe someone on LT can help?

I've found the following on the internet: 'At a wreck investigation, a brakeman was describing his version of the wreck: "The con was flipping the tissue in the doghouse; the hind shack was freezing a hot tub, near the hind end; tallow pot was cracking diamonds in the tank; Eagle Eye was down greasing the pig; and I was bending the rails when they hit us." Under cross-examination this was translated to mean that the conductor was examining his orders in the cupola (of the caboose). The rear brakeman was cooling off a journal (bearing on which the axle rests). The fireman was breaking coal. The engineer was oiling the engine, and the head brakeman was throwing a switch, when the collision took place.'

But some years ago I found a much longer version of the brakeman's evidence on the internet. Unfortunately I didn't save it and I've never been able to find it again since then. Any ideas?

Google only gives two hits for "tissue in the doghouse": one of those is unattributed and the other one cites A treasury of railroad folklore. Do Botkin & Harlow give a source for the piece?

thorold - unfortunately I haven't found it in Botkin and Harlow yet after doing a quick scan through the 500 or so pages. I haven't had time yet to go through the book in more detail as my work has kept me travelling in Sudan and Kenya pretty continuously since I received the book. Terrible when work keeps one away from the important things in life! I did manage to find time to fire a couple of steam locos in between trips though. I'll keep you posted.

I realize this thread is very old but in the off chance you are still a member of this site and are still searching, the book you are looking for is Railroad Avenue by Hubbard - 1945. The full text is in Chapter 22 - Lingo of the Rails

Thanks very much, mersenne6. I'll start looking for that book now.

I now finally have a copy of the book, via AbeBooks, and it is a great resource. The longer version of the tale is indeed there - thanks. Interestingly it is still not the exact version which I saw elsewhere long ago - in this one the tale is being told to a nurse, in the other one to a judge. I'm sure these tales have many, many versions.

There's an interesting chapter on Casey Jones, including interviews with contemporary figures who were still alive when this book was written in 1945.

I'm glad you like it - it is one of my favorites. The book on Casey Jones I have listed over in my library isn't bad but I like the shorter version in Railroad Avenue. If you like first person accounts as presented in Railroad Avenue and in A Treasury of Railroad Folklore I'd also recommend Brownie the Boomer . I've mentioned it on other threads but it's worth mentioning again - I just re-read several chapters of his book a couple of weeks ago.

I've been dipping in and out of Railroads in the African American experience : a photographic journey for some weeks (contrary to what the title implies, it's actually mostly text) - it's a bit patchy but, amongst other things, there's a very good chapter dealing with the background to railway ballads and songs, which might be worth a look if you come across the book somewhere. It's an absurdly heavy book - footplate training might be required to lift it...

{Late entry: just saw this thread this morning}. I don't see that anybody has solved the mystery of the "con flipping" etc. I think the fact that most of you are outside the USA is part of the problem. What it means in plain English is that the conductor was going through the train orders in the caboose. I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the USA, as long as written (or typed)train orders were still used, they appeared on super-light paper; I've got a whack of them hereabouts, plus an unused order-pad or two. There are also good stories about operators settling scores by how they hooped-up those little items. Also, I must put in a good word for Long steel rail, by Norman Cohen.

I remember written train orders, Harry. My dad was a depot agent and telegrapher for the CB&Q (Burlington Route, Burlington Northern, and BNSF by the time he retired.).

Several times we lived in apartments over the depots Dad worked in, and I can remember the green tissue paper train orders.

>12 MerryMary: On South African railways we still have to learn written train orders, known locally as telegraph working. It's the system used when other systems of train control fail.

In re #12. Tell me more, Mary. What station? I have worked and travelled all over the Midwest and the Mountains, and have a whack of "Q" souvenirs. On the IC and the B & O the paper was yellowish. If an operator knew that a particular train had somebody on the crew against whom he might have a grudge, or perhaps, if he just felt ornery, he'd accidentally-on-purpose put the order hoop just out of reach, thus necessitating the slowing, stopping, and reversing of the train to get the undelivered orders. Ah, the good old days.

To #8, in my travels through reading of the railroading job and talking with current(yes some systems still use them today on secondary unsignaled lines when warrants are not in use as I understand it) the train orders and the carbon paper sets that generated the multiple copies of orders were called 'flimsies' due to the thin paper. Everybody on the train just about had to get one(engineer, front brakeman, rear brakeman, conductor, the station agent, telegraph operator if not the same as the agent, and the order file). In some roads the sets were serialized.
Certain types could be hooped up but others required the train to stop so the conductor could sign the 'book'. These were typically meet orders.

I have found packs of them when I go to RR ephemera shows and in flea markets at time. I don't know if this helps any or is something you already knew. I'm the rookie on this thread! I believe #14 will agree with that!

The two most common types of orders normally mentioned in the east(at least PRR, Reading, B&O,C&O, N&W, etc) were 17 and 31 orders. One was informational and the other required the signature but for the life of me I can't remember which one was which. I guess I'll need to dig out an old rule book and refresh my memory!

Added:

I did some digging. See this link.
http://trn.trains.com/Railroad%20Reference/ABCs%20of%20Railroading/2006/05/Train...
This comes from a blog posting on train orders in Trains magazine.

Here is a correction to the above numbers. The two primary train orders that would override the schedule were 31's and 19's (not 17 as above). 31's required a stop and the book had to be signed to show that the conductor did receive the orders. 19's did not need a signature so they could be hooped up.

My dad was agent in quite a few stations, all in Nebraska. Pleasant Dale (east of Lincoln), Holstein and Harvard (either side of Hastings), Wolbach, York, and Sargent. Sargent was the end of a short branch line out of Hastings. The train came up one day, spent the night, turned around and went back to Hastings. They phased the whole branch out in the 70s. My parents then moved to Torrington, Wyoming for Dad's last depot. He finished his career there.

In the late 50s, he was sent to Billings, Montana and given an office job. We lived there 5 years, but he really hated "front office" personalities and politics, and we moved back to Nebraska and he went back to depot agent for the last 15-20 years of his career.

My youngest sister started her career as depot agent in Guernsey, Wyoming. She is now working for the BNSF in Topeka, Kansas in the offices of the main diesel shops.

In re #16. Many thanks, Mary. Obviously, your family is one which understands "Aksarben" -- a name generally incomprehensible to the people in the outside world. Best, -- Goddard.

*giggle/snort*

>17 HarryMacDonald: and 18. I adore words and dislike 'smiley faces' a great deal. I love the information Mary! Chuck

>16 MerryMary:...well tell her to get busy and start writing about her railroad experiences! I could use a good first person account of working in the main diesel shops of the BNSF....I'd put a smiley face here but I don't want to cause trouble with >19 ulmannc:

>20 alco261: You can put anything you want as long as it is RR related! Remember I'm an electronic Luddite and like to complain a lot about all this new stuff! I second your comment about getting 16 to write up that first person account!!

>16 MerryMary:....ah yes, Guernsey, Wyoming....quite a place for train watching....I had a great time.





It would be interesting to know how the place looks now...this was back in 1999

What line is the motor next to the BNSF motor?

They're all BNSF. The two older units have the earlier BNSF markings and the unit behind the lead has the green and white paint scheme which was not popular with some railfans...they referred to the scheme as "The Vomit Comet."

Shows you how much I know. . . I thought I knew most of the patterns and schemes used for BNSF but I guess not. The other big guys are rather easy . . . even good ole Conrail that is still running around here as part of the famous 'Shared Assets' arrangement.

NS even runs an old Conrail cabin car on the Trenton Cutoff or whatever they call it these days. It's a pusher platform and keeps the conductor from having to run all the way up front or hang onto the last car on the old scrap gons they run on it all the time. They are so beat up I'm waiting to find one collapsed on the right of way one of these days. . .on second thought they'll just pick it up and throw it in the furnace with the rest of the scrap!

I was hoping I wouldn't write this but I finally gave up on reading The Pennsylvania Railroad Volume 1 by Albert J. Churella. I did put a short review up on it. This is a guess on my part but it reads like some kind of an MBA Thesis and I just couldn't keep my eyes open reading it. I'm sure it will work as a reference book. Oh well - - onward to somethng else! I think I'm going to try Principles of Railway Operation by John Glover published by Ian Allen. If nothing else, it only weighs a few ounces compared to 6 pounds US of the previous book