Poquette's Bookaccino

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Poquette's Bookaccino

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1Poquette
Fev 2, 2011, 1:29 am

Bookaccino, anyone?

Back in the late 1990s there was a group on AOL called "The Book Report." I found it in 1995 about a week after I bought my first Windows-based computer (my Kaypro 10 having crashed and burned). "The Book Report" had a chat room called Bookaccino, which was hosted 24 hours a day and where the topic was reading. You would enter the room, be greeted by the host with a warm welcome something like, "Hi Poquette! What have you been reading?" This was too much fun. I hung out there for two nights in a row, and someone IM'd me and asked if I would be interested in being a host. Long story short, I did indeed become a host, and had great fun for two years, chatting about books with all the readers and even authors who occasionally dropped in for a chat. While I was on duty one evening, we had a memorable session with Nicholas Basbanes. This was just after his first book A Gentle Madness came out. Amy Bloom also dropped in on more than one occasion.

At any rate, I've been thinking for the past few weeks that all these LT groups like Club Read 2011 and others remind me of Bookaccino. Even though we aren't all gathered in a room together and interacting, even though there is that delay when you read a thread of 50 or so posts, it is exactly like a chat room dialogue. So, I knew I had to name my thread Bookaccino, which, although it is not my own invention, I want to continue the spirit of the thing. In addition to its cleverness, I am hoping that other Bookaccino veterans from the good old days at AOL will spot it and pop in out of curiosity. Of course, everybody else is welcome, too!

Having decided on a name, the next dilemma was: Where to post my thread?

The Ancient History Group is attractive, as is the History Group. But what to do about the books I read that are not history? Then there's 1001 Books to Read Before You Die, not to mention the 75 Book Challenge. The latter had to be dismissed out of hand because I would never meet said challenge, although I take huge delight in reading the threads. But reading books for the sake of numbers is not my thing although I admire all you fast readers out there. Besides, I have a propensity for getting involved in 900-page tomes which cannot be tossed off on a cold winter's weekend. The 1001 Books list is too restrictive. I'm too old to be limited to someone else's list, not that I couldn’t benefit from reading those books when it fits into my “program,” such as it is.

Club Reads 2011 seems to be just the place for Bookaccino, because I read what I take a fancy to, as do all of you. So this thread will be a depository of my reflections on my current reading -- as well as some of yours -- which will include gobs of history, mostly intellectual, artistic and literary -- and a smattering of fiction.

So, pour yourself a cuppa and join the fray as the spirit moves.

2Poquette
Editado: Fev 26, 2011, 4:46 pm

Here's what I've read in the past few months. I’ve included November and December reading because I just recently started paying attention to groups, and I want to make a record here of what’s been most recently on my mind:

The Moor by Laurie R. King ***
Oh, Jerusalem by Laurie R. King ****
Pursuit of Honor by Vince Flynn **
The Rise of Christianity by W.H.C. Frend *****
The Rise of Christianity by Rodney Stark ****
Giotto: The Arena Chapel Frescoes by James H. Stubblebine ***
Latin Thought During the Middle Ages by Cesare Foligno **
The Medieval World View by William R. Cook ****
The Friar and the Cipher by Lawrence Goldstone *** (2011)
The Religious Quests of the Graeco-Roman World by Samuel Angus **** (2011)
Alexander Hamilton by Ron Chernow ***** (2011)

Here are the books I’m currently reading:

The Subversion of Christianity by Jacques Ellul
The Secret Language of the Renaissance: Decoding the Hidden Symbolism of Italian Art by Richard Stemp
All Passion Spent by Vita Sackville-West
The Occult Philosophy in the Elizabethan Age (Routledge Classics) by Frances Yates (Kindle version)

ETA strikeouts indicating books have been read.

3Poquette
Fev 2, 2011, 1:33 am

None of my touchstones are working. Ugh!

4Poquette
Editado: Abr 19, 2011, 2:13 am

Once again, in the interest of making a record, here are my TBR lists:

Fiction:
The Rule of Four by Ian Caldwell
The Unconsoled by Kazuo Ishiguro
The City & The City by China Mieville
The Way We Live Now by Anthony Trollope
Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell

General Nonfiction:
The Library at Night by Alberto Manguel
Howard's End is on the Landing by Susan Hill

History:
The Pagan Dream of the Renaissance by Joscelyn Godwin
The Mirror of the Gods: How the Renaissance Artists Rediscovered the Pagan Gods by Malcolm Bull
The Survival of the Pagan Gods by Jean Seznec
The Cello Suites by Eric Siblin
Plutarch and the Historical Tradition by Philip A. Stadter
A History of Histories by John Burrow

Literature/Literary Criticism:
Hypnerotomachia Poliphili: The Strife of Love in a Dream by Francesco Colonna
Commentary on the Dream of Scipio by Macrobius
The Classical Tradition: Greek and Roman Influences on Western Literature by Gilbert Highet
The High Medieval Dream Vision: Poetry, Philosophy and Literary Form by Kathryn Lynch

This should keep me busy for a while!

ETA strikeouts

5janemarieprice
Fev 2, 2011, 10:27 am

Welcome! Some interesting things on the TBR. Particularly looking forward to your history reading.

6theaelizabet
Fev 2, 2011, 10:32 am

That's a healthy TBR! i've been tempted by The Library at Night. I'll be interested to know what you think. Welcome. And I love the story of your name!

7Poquette
Editado: Fev 7, 2011, 11:41 am

Back atcha, janepriceestrada and theaelizabet. Thanks for stopping by.

Here are some reading ideas I've purloined from other Club Read 2011 contributors:

All Passion Spent by Vita Sackville-West - Wandering Star
(All touchstones seem to be "spent" as well.)
Worldly Goods: a new history of the Renaissance by Lisa Jardine - Wandering Star
The Clothes on their Backs by Linda Grant - Wandering Star
Howard's End is on the Landing by Susan Hill – Chatterbox
Thread of Grace by Mary Doria Russell - Citizenjoyce
Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell - labfs39
Unbroken by Laura Hillenbrand
The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman
The Invention of Hugo Cabret
Angelology by Danielle Trussoni

(ETA - to note labfs39's review of Cloud Atlas - and voila! It appears the touchstones have magically turned themselves on!)

8baswood
Fev 2, 2011, 6:00 pm

Hi Suzanne,

I was wondering if you were going to start your own thread here. Welcome and I will be following your history reading with great interest. I read Cloud Atlas last year which I enjoyed. The city and the city is on my to buy list. Have you read Cina Mieville's Perdido Street Station; this was the book that got me back to reading science fiction after quite a number of gap years. One of my all time favourites.

9Poquette
Fev 3, 2011, 1:27 am

Hey Barry,

Thanks for stopping by. Just read some reviews at Amazon for Perdido Street Station. Sounds interesting, as well.

10Poquette
Editado: Fev 7, 2011, 11:46 am

Books read so far in 2011:

1. The Friar and the Cipher, Roger Bacon and the Unsolved Mystery of the Most Unusual Manuscript in the World by Lawrence Goldstone
2. The religious quests of the Graeco-Roman world; a study in the historical background of early Christianity by Samuel Angus
3. Alexander Hamilton by Ron Chernow
4. All Passion Spent by Vita Sackville-West

I've written about the first three elsewhere. Comments on All Passion Spent to follow. This is a pretty good start for me, although I have to admit that I started the Hamilton book last year.

Touchstones still not working.

11Poquette
Fev 3, 2011, 1:44 am

All Passion Spent by Vita Sackville-West

No perfunctory outline of All Passion Spent can convey the charm of the story as told and the people who inhabit it. One may perhaps need to be of a certain age to fully appreciate the amusingly nuanced elderly characters who by virtue of class contrasts are rendered even more charming than they otherwise might be. Indeed, when you learn that the heroine of the piece is an octogenarian, you may be put off, but don't run away too hastily. If you enjoy eccentric personalities and an evocation of a time quickly fading from memory, you will enjoy Vita Sackville-West's rendering of what otherwise might be not much of a story at all.

Set in London and Hampstead when automobiles were quickly replacing horsedrawn conveyances, a tale unfolds of a former Viceroy of India's widow Lady Slane who has buried her husband in Westminster Abbey, and over the protests of her children decides to dispose of the family home in London and move -- by herself -- to Hampstead fully intending to enjoy her final years unencumbered by familial demands. The novel proceeds from there, and in the process provides us with delight, smiles, chuckles and even outright laughter.

But gradually beginning in Part Two, the atmosphere grows more somber. The smiles and delights are replaced with wistful reminiscence and contemplation of other paths Lady Slane might have taken in her life. Although the book is not in the form of an interior monologue, it feels as such because at different moments, the narration unfolds through the eyes of first one character and then another in such a personal way, that one is left with an unusual impression of intimacy.

All Passion Spent has been compared with Virginia Woolf's A Room with a View, and the two books do share certain characteristics. While the arc of the story is nicely constructed, there were a number of loose ends that I wish had been accounted for, but no doubt these lacunae were intentional.

The beguiling quality of All Passion Spent was immeasurably enhanced by Wendy Hiller's narration. Yes, we're talking about the audio version, unabridged, which I highly recommend. Wendy Hiller captures the nuances of personality to a T and presents a listening experience that recaptures, if only briefly, an era with its attitudes and customs so different yet not so far removed in time from our own.

12Chatterbox
Fev 4, 2011, 1:30 am

I loved that book...

I was intrigued by the Plutarch tome, but when I beetled over to Amazon, the price ($104 on Kindle????) nearly caused heart failure. I'm assuming you have access to an academic library??

13Poquette
Editado: Fev 4, 2011, 4:07 am

Hi Suzanne! Re the Plutarch, it's part of what I call my "Virtual Library." I have a membership at Questia.com, and I'm going to be reading it there. Quite a lot of obscure titles are available there. I had forgotten about the hefty price. My notes say it was $220. So maybe it's come down. If you wait long enough . . . ;-)

14Poquette
Fev 6, 2011, 6:13 pm

Book number 5 of the year:

The Secret Language of the Renaissance: Decoding the Hidden Symbolism of Italian Art by Richard Stemp.

Of all the art books/coffee table books I own, this is one of the few I've actually read cover to cover. On the whole, I liked it, but it wasn't exactly what I was expecting, nor is it a particularly scholarly work. There's nothing new here -- just the packaging is unusual. More about that presently.

If you've taken an art history course that covers the period from 1400 to, say, 1525, this book provides a refresher. Most of the art works covered are familiar. Just coincidentally, I recently watched a Teaching Company course entitled, Great Artists of the Italian Renaissance, taught by William Kloss, which covers much of the same material. However, Kloss organized his course chronologically. Stemp organized his book topically, and the topics make all the difference.

As I said, this book was not what I was expecting. I actually believed the dust jacket blurb which said, and I quote: "For all those who relish esoteric symbolism, cryptic codes and the riches of Renaissance Italy itself." The riches of Renaissance Italy are amply presented. Symbolism is explained to a certain extent, but as for "esoteric symbolism" or "cryptic codes," that is a gross overstatement. Perhaps it would be esoteric to someone from Mars who has never seen a Renaissance painting in his life, or cryptic to someone who is unschooled in a Western cultural and religious background, but definitely interesting to students of said Western culture, religion and mythology.

The book, like Caesar's Gaul, is divided in three parts: The first part gives a breezy introduction to the state of the arts -- painting, sculpture, architecture and decorative arts -- and literature in 15th century Italy. In the course of the book, a few representative works from the preceeding and succeeding centuries are discussed to illustrate a point. But by and large, coverage is limited to the period from approximately 1400 to 1525.

The second part of the book is called, "The Language of the Renaissance," and enumerates categories of tools used by artists to convey meaning, knowledge of which aids the viewer in anylizing a particular work of art. Such categories include objects and their meanings, color, light and shade, perspective, proportion, geometry, gesture and body language, layers of meaning, and many more. Each category is illustrated by two or more works of art, all in full color.

Part three is called "The Thematic Decoder." This section takes important paintings and analyzes them in terms of the ideas explored in the previous section, and adds a bit more in the process. Again, this section is presented topically under such headings as "The Bible," "The Church," "Heaven & Earth," "The Antique," "Mythology," "Scholarship," "Government," "Power & Wealth," "War & Peace," "Life & Society," and more. Each of these sections is illustrated by several masterpieces which are discussed in detail.

Most of the so-called mystery surrounding Renaissance art has more to do with our modern loss of cultural references that were well-known to cultured people alive at the time. We in our time obviously require detailed explanation of the seemingly irrelevant elements depicted in paintings, but I would hardly classify any of them as essoteric. They were never hidden. They merely became lost to our understanding.

Aside from the misleading blurb referenced above -- and let that be a lesson: Don't believe everything you read on a book's jacket -- my only criticism of the book is related to its apparent lack of scholarship. One doesn't doubt what is presented. That is not the problem. But while it gives the names of works, the artists, the dates and locations, it leaves out the dimensions. This can be very important when contemplating a reproduction in a book. Also there are no footnotes, endnotes or otherwise. For instance, there are numerous references to noncanonical stories of Christian saints, but it fails to mention the sources of such stories. One can surmise that many of them came from The Golden Legend, but that work is not mentioned, either.

On the whole, however, this is a very useful book, one well worth reading from cover to cover. And it is wonderful to have so many important works gathered together in one beautifully produced full color volume.

15labfs39
Fev 6, 2011, 9:48 pm

The eccentric octogenarian heroine of All Passion Spent sounds beguiling. Have you read Valeria's Last Stand? It is a first novel and reflects it, but the similarly aged character of Valeria is a delight, and the depiction of Hungary on the cusp of the change from communism to capitalism is allegorical.

How do you like the Teaching Company courses? I have been meaning to try a few. I hear very good things about them.

16Poquette
Fev 6, 2011, 10:28 pm

>labfs39: Have not read Valeria's Last Stand but will look into it.

I love the Teaching Company. You would be embarrassed for me if you knew how many of their courses I own. The courses and instructors are absolutely top drawer. One drawback, however: The time spent listening to or watching a course is time that one is not reading!

17labfs39
Fev 7, 2011, 10:12 am

Ahh, but if my watching actually informs my reading, then I don't mind so much. All print and no screen time makes Lisa a dullard. (Ha! This from someone who was too embarrassed to add audio books to her 75 Book Challenge list because they didn't "count".)

18janemarieprice
Fev 7, 2011, 9:53 pm

14 - Interesting though I think I'll pass. I would like to resubmerge myself in some of the histories I took in college, especially art history. I think I would want something with more substance though.

19Poquette
Fev 8, 2011, 2:22 am

Lisa, LOL re audio books!

Jane, let me know if you find that something with more substance. I'd be interested, now that I've done the survey routine twice via the Teaching Company and this book. Have you read Worldly Goods: a New History of the Renaissance? It would appear from WanderingStar's review that it doesn't cover art directly, but it sounds interesting nonetheless. I don't have it yet, but it's on my TBR.

20Poquette
Fev 8, 2011, 2:51 am

Read the graphic novel The Night Bookmobile (book number 6 for the year) this evening at the Guardian website (too impatient to wait for a hard copy). Here's a quote that I liked:

Have you ever found your heart's desire and then lost it? I had seen myself, a portrait of myself as a reader. My childhood: hours spent in airless classrooms, days home sick from school reading Nancy Drew, forbidden books read secretively late at night. Teenage years reading--trying to read--books I'd heard were important, Naked Lunch and The Fountainhead, Ulysses and Women in Love . . . It was as though I had dreamt the perfect lover, who vanished as I woke, leaving me pining and surly.


For me it was Peyton Place when I was a furtively curious teen.

This wasn't on my TBR -- it just snuck in there thanks to Lisa (labfs39) and others who have commented here and there. I've got to finish the Jacques Ellul book and then I need a breather with some lighter reading from the TBR.

21Poquette
Fev 10, 2011, 2:56 am

Finally finished reading The Subversion of Christianity by Jacques Ellul, published in French in 1984 and translated soon thereafter into English. I read the English version.

While this book covers some of the same ground as The Religious Quests of the Graeco-Roman World by Samuel Angus (also read and reviewed this year), it takes a more philosophical rather than historical approach, and while exceedingly interesting, it was less useful for my purposes than the Angus book. And it does not lend itself to a couple of glib paragraphs in summary. From my point of view it defies summarization, but I'll try to comment anyway.

The point made by both authors is that almost from the moment of Jesus' death, the so-called subversion began, in large part, because the followers of Jesus were focused on the end of times, and Jesus had not provided them with a cosmological world view. Consequently, once the Christian followers were faced with the need to organize and deal with the world as it was then constituted, along with the setting down of beliefs and principles of organization, it was inevitable that the form if not the substance of existing pagan institutions would present themselves as models for a fledgling organization to follow. Thus, sacramental practices, for example, were enlarged upon from what was set out in the four Gospels, a priesthood was established, and forms of worship, etc., were not terribly unlike contemporary pagan practices.

Let me just say that Ellul's book is about exactly what its title suggests, and so I can recommend it if it dovetails with your interests. The Ellul book is somewhat less interesting to me than the Angus volume because my preoccupation is more historical than philosophical, and with how pagan ideas, myths, customs, organizations, etc., survived and continued their influence in the West despite the coopting of Christianity by the Constantinian state. Several titles on my TBR list cover this area with respect to the history in the West of pagan influences, with completely different emphases, of course. Medieval and Renaissance history is of particular interest to me in this context particularly as it relates to the arts, literature and to some extent, to philosophy.

22deebee1
Fev 10, 2011, 10:43 am

Poquette, just to let you know that I'm enjoying your thread, especially the bits about history and religion. I'm now about to finish Shlomo Sand's excellent book The Invention of the Jewish People where he mentions in passing the admixture of certain existing practices (pagan or otherwise) with the dominant (or the conqueror's) religion at the time. This part piqued my curiosity on the subject so that your post's timing leading me to the Angus volume is just perfect.

23Poquette
Fev 10, 2011, 2:37 pm

deebee -- thanks for stopping by and thanks for your positive reinforcement. Admittedly my interests are somewhat off the beaten track, and I'm always glad to run into kindred spirits. I hope you will be able to get hold of the Angus book. I found it utterly fascinating and will be interested in your reactions. It doesn't touch much upon Judaism except as it relates to its Christian offshoots. And the discussion of various pagan strands and beliefs is presented in pretty much a Christian context, but still there is much to be gleaned.

Thanks for your comment about the Sand book. I'll look into it.

24deebee1
Fev 10, 2011, 3:36 pm

I just checked the availability of the Angus book and saw that there are very few copies available and that they are either in the 1st edition (1929) or the 1967 one, and even classified under antiquarian. I'm wondering why, despite being a subject that seem to be of more general interest (after all, there are many who profess Christianity and an attendant curiosity by most about how certain practices or rituals they engage in came about would perhaps not be out of place), no edition seems to have been published since '67. I tried to find out more about the book and the author, too, but couldn't find much. What little info I read about Angus shows him to have been a very controversial figure, with his ideas being labelled heretic. Wow, that intrigued me even more! I think I will be clicking that Buy button very soon...

Have you written a review of it somewhere? I would be really interested to read what you think. Also, how accessible is the writing for someone who has no history background, but is simply interested and yes, who can slog through pages with footnotes which battle with the text for space? :-)

25labfs39
Fev 10, 2011, 3:38 pm

Interesting ideas. I already have the Sand book on my TBR list (thanks deebee), but the Angus book sounds intriguing as well. I found A History of God to begin with a fascinating look at how Genesis is a remaking of the Babylonian epic poem "Enuma Elish". The similarities between the two creation myths are numerous and show the progression of traditions and beliefs across religions based on historical proximity.

26Poquette
Fev 10, 2011, 9:23 pm

Deebee, Regarding availability of the Angus book, I think the main problem is it is kind of old. The author died in 1943. The style is somewhat formal and probably reflects the times as well. Also there probably weren't that many copies published to begin with. But I agree with you, the subject is of tremendous interest, to believers and otherwise. I don't belong to a church myself, but I am still very interested in the whole subject around religion, belief, origins of belief, etc.

As to Angus's heresy, that made me smile, and I'm quite surprised, because if I'd had to guess, I would have said that he was devout, largely because of the tone of the writing. But I suppose you can still be devout and disbelieve in "the doctrine of the Trinity, the Biblical inspiration, the virgin birth and bodily resurrection of Christ." (Quoted from Wikipedia bio.) After all, the current Archbishop of Canterbury apparently is a nonbeliever! I dare say in 1943 he might have been declared a heretic as well.

You can find my review of the Angus book here. This link takes you to the page of my reviews, which you can also find by going to my profile page and clicking on Reviews. You may have to scroll down to find this review.

If you are not accustomed to reading history books, you might find yourself having to look up things a lot. There is some assumption by the author that the reader has a certain background. Aside from getting used to his style, I don't think this book is too daunting.

The book is also available on line at questia.com, although there is a fee. But I think you can preview the table of contents and maybe a page or two before they cut you off. I have had a membership there for years and have found some really great old books there -- also articles. The site is geared mostly to students and is set up as a study environment, but even though I'm not a formal student, I am constantly going there. Check it out.

27Poquette
Editado: Fev 10, 2011, 9:27 pm

Lisa, A History of God sounds interesting. I've heard about it somewhere and should probably add it to my list as well.

28zenomax
Fev 11, 2011, 1:40 pm

Enjoying the conversation you are having here on the early shoots of christianity - something I should really read up on (when though?).

29Poquette
Editado: Fev 12, 2011, 1:20 pm

zenomax -- I share your dilemma. My reading appetite far outstrips my reading speed.

And now for something completely different! Ta da!

I started reading Cloud Atlas and am thoroughly taken by it. Almost everything I've read about it is true: great writing, good stories, intriguing format. Here is a quote that resonated from the opening of "Letters from Zedelghem":

Dreamt I stood in a china shop so crowded from floor to far-off ceiling with shelves of porcelain antiquities etc. that moving a muscle would cause several to fall and smash to bits. Exactly what happened, but instead of a crashing noise, an august chord rang out, half-cello, half-celeste, D major (?), held for four beats. My wrist knocked a Ming vase affair off its pedestal--E-flat, whole string section, glorious, transcendent, angels wept. Deliberately now, smashed a figurine of an ox for the next note, then a milkmaid, then Saturday's Child--orgy of shrapnel filled the air, divine harmonies my head. Ah, such music! Glimpsed my father totting up the smashed items' value, nib flashing, but had to keep the music coming. Knew I'd become the greatest composer of the century if I could only make this music mine. A monstrous Laughing Cavalier flung against the wall set off a thumping battery of percussion.


Thanks to all for the recommendation!

30labfs39
Fev 12, 2011, 3:08 pm

As you read Cloud Atlas, you may want to check out the threads from our recent group read. I found some of the comments very illuminating, and they helped me further my understanding of the text.

Thread 1

Thread 2

There is also a podcast interview with the author that is mentioned in one of the threads. I have downloaded it, but haven't read it yet. Those that have said it was interesting to learn about some of what he intended.

31deebee1
Fev 13, 2011, 6:35 am

#26 thanks for the link to your review, and to questia. I know about questia but have not gotten a subscription knowing I would not be able to make full use of the access yet. I've looked at the table of the contents and the intro of the Angus book, and now I'm even more intrigued. This seems the kind of book that will lead me to other titles or subjects that I would not have known otherwise. I'm certainly noting this subject as a future reading project. Thanks for the idea, Poquette.

That detail about the Archibishop of Canterbury raised my eyebrows up to the top of my head! :-)

32Poquette
Fev 14, 2011, 9:24 pm

>30 labfs39: Lisa, thanks for the links. After I'd read the first installment about Adam Ewing, I found an interesting interview with Mitchell from the Paris Review. Gained quite a few insights there.

>31 deebee1: - deebee, re the Archbishop -- yeah, what a contrast with his predecessor George Carey, who I admired from my far off vantage point across the pond.

33Poquette
Fev 15, 2011, 4:01 am

Just finished Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell.

There are 6,222 copies of Cloud Atlas on LibraryThing and 182 reviews. So much of what could be said has already been said, so I shall forego attempting a review. But I would like to make note of a few thoughts:

Like almost everyone who has read it, I would have to say that this was one of the best novels I've read in a long time, and I think it is going to stay with me. Perhaps most admirable from my point of view was not only its originality and quality of writing, but it was also highly entertaining.

One of Mitchell's recurring themes is what he terms "predacity." Each of the stories illustrates a variation on that theme. Mitchell also shows us that much of what happens in the world is a function of belief and says as much in the closing pages. (There's a notion to follow up.)

If I had any criticism at all, it might be that the message-giving was borderline preachy in the final pages and left me feeling a bit sad, but on the other hand, Mitchell was merely wrapping it up for us in a tidy package, in case we had missed the point along the way.

BTW, does anyone know how to give fractional stars, you know, like ****1/2? I've scoured the Help pages and cannot find anything about it.

34baswood
Editado: Fev 15, 2011, 4:53 am

Hi Suzanne

To give fractional stars click on the relevant star sign twice. I am starting the Boethius today and am already impressed with the translation. If you want to get pictures or do all manner of stuff om your thread then this link will help http://www.librarything.com/topic/104943
Barry

35Poquette
Fev 15, 2011, 2:15 pm

Thanks much, Barry! Somehow I've seen that thread before, but it didn't answer my burning question, which you now have. Much appreciated!

36Poquette
Fev 17, 2011, 4:22 am

Boethius (Great Medieval Thinkers) by John Marenbon. Oxford, 2003.

As I have written elsewhere, Boethius has been something of a pet project of mine over the past couple of years. Having belatedly discovered his Consolation of Philosophy, I found it to be quite compelling. The Consolation is perhaps the origin of my recent preoccupation with tracing the influence of pagan (i.e., Neoplatonic, etc.) thought through and including the Renaissance and even the Enlightenment. Also, Boethius represents a literary and philosophical bridge between Late Antiquity and Medieval Europe. And without Boethius's translations, Aristotle would have been completely lost to European scholars until the Renaissance.

Boethius was a Christian, as were most people in Italy by the 5th century, but philosophically he was a Neoplatonist. His great project was to reconcile Aristotle with Plato and to translate the entire works of both. He did not live long enough to accomplish the latter, but the Consolation shows to some degree his success with the former. It also represents an attempt to reconcile Neoplatonic philosophy with Christianity.

Boethius was born into a senatorial family and when his parents died, he was adopted by Symmachus, another respected Roman senator. In his own right, he served as consul and subsequently was appointed a chief minister in the government of Theodoric, the Ostragoth king of Italy. He fell from grace, however, probably through a political betrayal although the historical record is murky on that score, and was condemned to death. He wrote the Consolation of Philosophy while in custody awaiting what turned out to be a horrific execution.

John Marenbon has produced a study of all the known works of Boethius and in the process explains why Boethius was so important to the development of philosophy and education in Western Europe. It has been said that Boethius was the remote ancestor of scholasticism, because his works became foundational in the school curriculum for the better part of a millenium. His influence is apparent to students of Dante, Boccaccio, Chaucer and Thomas Aquinas. The Consolation was translated at various times into English by King Alfred, Chaucer and the first Queen Elizabeth.

Marenbon's book has been close at hand for the better part of a year. I first read the parts about the Consolation and about Boethius's influence throughout the Middle Ages because those were of immediate interest. In recent days I finally read the sections on his translations, commentaries and religious tractates. These are of lesser interest to me, but they do help to round out the picture of a remarkable man whose work is little read today except as a sort of historical curiosity.

I especially enjoyed the section of Marenbon's book where he discussed the poetry contained in the Consolation and how the original Latin verse forms were related to the subject matter.

37baswood
Fev 17, 2011, 1:22 pm

Hi Suzanne

The John Marenbon book sounds fascinating. Amazon allowed me to read the introduction and so I might get it once I have read the Consolation. I am enjoying the P G Walsh translation and I thought his introduction was quite good. I particularly like the poetry and was hooked straight away by the first poem in Book 1 chapter 1. It has some great lines:

"While fickle Fortune transient goods did show,
One bitter hour could almost bring me low,"

Walsh says in his introduction that his translation of the verse is mostly unrelated to the Latin metres. Well it would be because the structure of Latin is so different to English. He says that it does however closely register the sense of the originals, therefore the Marnbon book might be interesting if it throws more light on this issue.

For me Boethius seems to be standing at the crossroads between antiquity and the middle ages. I had planned my reading to go forward from the late middle ages, but now I am thinking I might need to go backwards as well and cover the huge gaps I have in the classical canon.

38Poquette
Fev 17, 2011, 1:51 pm

Hi Barry,

Glad you are enjoying the Consolation of Philosophy. I'm looking forward to your review.

Of all the translations I own I think Walsh's intro is the best, partly because it is so comprehensive. Also I find his notes to be extremely useful because they provide excellent background explanations of references to mythology and other ancient writings that people such as I who are somewhat rusty on those things particularly appreciate.

I know what you mean about the opening poem. It is very effective in drawing one in. In fact, I am particularly fond of the poems in general and how they supplement the prose.

I agree with you entirely that Boethius is a bridge between antiquity and the middle ages. That alone would make him worth reading, but the overall appeal and accessibility of the Consolation is icing on the cake.

39Poquette
Editado: Abr 19, 2011, 2:16 am

Now that I've finished most of the books on my original reading list (#2 above), here is an update of what's on deck:

The Occult Philosophy in the Elizabethan Age (Routledge Classics) by Frances Yates (Kindle version) -- in continuing pursuit of pagan influences

The High Medieval Dream Vision: Poetry, Philosophy and Literary Form by Kathryn Lynch -- inspired by my Boethius mania

The Rule of Four by Ian Caldwell -- gotta squeeze some fiction in here somewhere!

Hypnerotomachia Poliphili: The Strife of Love in a Dream by Francesco Colonna -- related to the previous title, and about which more later

The Real Rule of Four by Joscelyn Godwin -- related to the previous two titles, and winging its way to me as I write.

40zenomax
Fev 17, 2011, 2:43 pm

You are delving into areas where I have barely gained a foothold.

I've started with my first Frances Yates this year.

I also have an interest in Jung's interest in alchemy - perhaps some overlap with your studies there?

41Poquette
Fev 17, 2011, 11:45 pm

Hey zenomax,

Which Yates did you read? I really like what I've read so far in The Occult Philosophy in the Elizabethan Age (Routledge Classics). I also have a lengthy article of hers published in the Journal of the Warburg and Courtauld Intitutes, but I haven't read it yet. It's called "The Art of Ramon Lull: An Approach to It through Lull's Theory of the Elements." Among other things Lull was a cabalist who was responsible for the introduction of "Christian Cabalism" to Florentine intellectuals of the Renaissance. What a concept! He may have had an interest in alchemy as well. I've forgotten just now.

Speaking of alchemy, I just found Jung's Psychology and Alchemy on my shelf. It's been there for years, much thumbed through but largely because of the 270 illustrations from medieval texts, alchemical and otherwise. I've never read it from cover to cover, but I have dipped into it here and there. Are you familiar with it? Jung is rather opaque when it comes to describing the significance of said illustrations, which is a bit frustrating. I may have to actually read this book to begin to grasp what they're all about.

Do you have a particular Jung text in mind? I think he wrote two, maybe three. I'm not sure if mine is the best from an alchemical point of view, but in skimming the first few pages of the introduction, I see he had a few things to say about subjects of interest -- to me at least.

42zenomax
Editado: Fev 18, 2011, 4:39 am

Suzanne - I have been browsing Yates' The Art of Memory which I got for Christmas.

I'm not sure if it was written before or after her other books but it has chapters on people whom she also devotes full books to (e.g. Giordano Bruno) - so I'm guessing she either liked some of the subjects so much that she later decided to research further and produce full blown books on them, or she wanted to tie together all her full books into an overview of the theme of memory.

Either way her body of work appears to be a fascinating insight into a hitherto murky area unknown (I'd guess) to all but a few academics.

Some chapter headings from The Art of Memory to give a flavour:

'The Art of Memory in Greece: Memory and the Soul'
'The Art of Memory in the Middle Ages'
'Renaissance Memory: The Memory Theatre of Giulio Camillo'
'Lullism as an Art of Memory'
'Fludd's Memory Theatre and the Globe Theatre'.

43zenomax
Fev 18, 2011, 5:03 am

Jung is another thing altogether. If Yates opens up another small room in the shabby, seen - better - days tenement in my mind, Jung occupies a whole floor.

I think I read about Jung's interest in alchemy first in a book about him rather than in one of his books.

Jung had many interests in the esoteric, not only out of an interest in the unusual or obscure, but as a means of understanding the psyche and the collective unconscious (a most fascinating concept). Jung delved into Gnosticism, I-Ching and the occult as well as alchemy in his lifetime.

He also started the boom in personality tests (Myers Briggs, Keirsey, and the East European variant - Socionics all emerged from J's theory of personality types).

I came to Jung after doing Myers Briggs - which was an eye opener for me. It was a moment of clarity for me - I was not someone out of synch with the rest of humanity (those strange creatures who understood things I did not, but who didn't seem to be able to grasp the things that I intuitively knew).

Anyway, there are rich pickings in these areas for those who like such esoterica.

44Poquette
Fev 19, 2011, 2:45 am

zenomax, I devoured Jung back in the Seventies. Haven't read anything in decades. Maybe it's time for a reread, huh?

45Poquette
Fev 19, 2011, 2:55 am

Began reading The High Medieval Dream Vision. This book is so densely packed with ideas and concepts that I need to summarize what I've gleaned so far. By way of introduction, this was a doctoral dissertation that was reworked for publication, so it has many of the irritating characteristics of academic writing. But that said, the information is golden.

Chapter one is about the medieval psychology of knowledge -- not merely epistemology -- and how it colored literary output beginning especially in the 11th century and continuing through the 14th century. As the medieval world view was dominated by man's notion of his relation to God and to Nature, medieval writers were much concerned with understanding how to reconcile the fruits of the imagination with those of the intellect and still conform to spiritual necessity: i.e., to ensure that intellectual pursuits aided man on his anticipated trajectory towards God by harnessing the imagination. Medievals considered intellect or reason to be a mental activity separate from and superior to imagination.

We tend to forget that the arts were held in low esteem by Plato and that the early ascetic Christians viewed the arts as trivial as compared to theological pursuits. This was a great deal to overcome, and it engendered serious philosophizing in the 11th and 12th centuries, the net effect of which was to redefine prevailing attitudes towards intellect and imagination and their relation to Godly pursuits. Thus, medieval poets had to overcome centuries of prejudice against the art of poetry. It was tainted by association with ancient pagans, and of course the Muses themselves were pagan.

There was an urge to harness poetry to guide the earthbound reader along the path towards heaven, and one of the most popular genres in that effort was the philosophic dream vision, of which Boethius's Consolation of Philosophy was an early prototype. Between the time of Boethius and that of Chaucer, over 225 visions -- literary and otherwise -- were written, 90 percent after 1100 when the dream vision came into full flower and continued to flourish until the 14th century. Examples include De planctu naturae of Alain de Lille, the Roman de la rose, Gower's Confessio Amantis, Dante's Purgatorio and Piers Plowman.

It is instructive to think of medieval psychology/epistemology by keeping in mind C.S. Lewis's The Discarded Image, wherein he devoted much of the book to explaining the medieval world view, which influenced attitudes and thought processes in ways that are difficult for us to imagine today. Familiarity with that text may inform one's comprehension of the ideas presented here.

And this is just the first chapter!!!

46Poquette
Fev 19, 2011, 3:00 am

zenomax, Art of Memory sounds interesting. I'll look into it.

47baswood
Fev 19, 2011, 7:29 am

Suzanne,

Excellent review of the first chapter of The High Medieval Dream Vision. I think I must now get C S Lewis's The Discarded Image which seems pretty essential

48Poquette
Fev 19, 2011, 1:20 pm

Hi Barry,

I somehow thought you would have read The Discarded Image because it's right up your street. Yes. You may be blown away by it. I've read it twice, and maybe I'll read it again this year. It's a small book, but jam packed with jewels and golden nuggets.

49baswood
Fev 19, 2011, 8:02 pm

Suzanne,

Have you come across the Luminarium website. There are lots of essays, thesis etc to download as well as plenty of texts in the medieval section. The link is: http://www.luminarium.org/

50labfs39
Fev 19, 2011, 8:35 pm

Does she talk about Hildegard of Bingen's dream visions? Such an utterly amazing woman for her time...

51Poquette
Editado: Fev 20, 2011, 3:33 am

Barry, I've just been lost in the Luminarium for the past hour. Thanks much for pointing me in that direction. Somehow I had not discovered it before. What a fantastic resource, and all in one place, too.

Lisa, Alas, Kathryn Lunch does not include Hildegard in her discussion. Her book consists of six lengthy chapters, each one -- other than the first two -- is devoted to explicating a single work. Featured are De Planctu Naturae of Alain de Lille, The Roman de la Rose, Dante's Purgatorio and John Gower's Confessio Amantis. If I am understanding the focus here, it is on visionary literature with spiritual overtones rather than outright religious or mystical visions. The works dealt with are exemplars of this particular subgenre. I'll know more as I read further.

By the way, Lisa, speaking of Hildegard, there is a Teaching Company course entitled "Medieval Heroines in History and Legend" that might interest you. The prof is Bonnie Wheeler of Southern Methodist University, and she features four medieval women: Heloise, Hildegard of Bingen, Eleanor of Aquitaine and Joan of Arc. My favorite of the four is Eleanor, but it's a pretty interesting course. You might find it at a local library if you are interested and don't want to spring for it.

52labfs39
Fev 20, 2011, 11:27 am

Ah, I see. Hildegard was a prolific writer and composer, but not in literary terms. She fascinates me. Thank you for the suggestion of "Medieval Heroines". It is a book not their usual video, and I have queued for it as an ebook. Looks fascinating! I'm tempted to borrow it from the library for the Purgatorio chapter, if nothing else. I look forward to reviews of the other chapters. And I hope you post a final review in LT as there are none currently.

53Poquette
Editado: Fev 20, 2011, 5:06 pm

Well, I have't read any of Hildegard's work, so I wouldn't go so far as to say she was not a "literary" writer. But as Lynch pointed out, there were 225 vision-type works written over a thousand-year period, 90 percent of which were in the 11th-14th centuries, and she has picked exemplars to study and explain in detail. If I understood her introduction correctly, she picked works that were secular (i.e., intentionally literary) and attempting to bridge the gap between the profane and sacred that I tried to explain above. So I don't think she was making a judgment about Hildegard's relative literary qualities. But Hildegard was writing about authentic religious experiences which were not intentionally literary first and foremost. I don't think her omission is a value judgment. It's more about point of view. And I'll be sure to report -- as it becomes clearer -- what particular merit caused her to choose each of the writings that she discussed.

BTW, Lisa, let me know what you think of "Medieval Heroines." I'll be interested in your take.

54labfs39
Fev 20, 2011, 5:28 pm

Sorry, that's what I meant. I was agreeing with you, I just wrote a very poor post. :-) I wasn't thinking of "literary" as a value judgment but as a content filter. Her works were definitely religious in content and thus not applicable to the book you are reading.

Mea culpa!

55Poquette
Fev 20, 2011, 5:45 pm

Glad we've got that cleared up! LOL

But now you've got me curious about Hildegard, etc. I was just doing a google search and stumbled on a possibly Japanese or perhaps Korean site which has bootlegged the "Medieval Heroines" TC course -- the video version. I have it on audiotape and was curious to see Bonnie Wheeler so I watched a bit of the first lecture. If you're curious, do a google on Medieval Heroines and scroll down a bit and you'll see a site called vyouku.com -- obviously a youtube ripoff -- the ads are in whatever language. Anyway, for what it's worth . . .

56ncgraham
Fev 20, 2011, 11:44 pm

Ooooh, I see you're planning on reading The Way We Live Now! I've had my eye on that for a while. Did you know that the Monthly Author Reads group is planning a Trollopethon in April? Maybe you can schedule your reading to coincide with that, and join us over there!

57ChocolateMuse
Fev 21, 2011, 1:05 am

Hi Poquette, I found you today just before you and Nathan (ncgraham) discovered each other's threads. Your expertise in history astounds me.

58Poquette
Fev 21, 2011, 3:31 pm

Nathan, welcome to my little Bookaccino. If I am very diligent, I may be ready for The Way We Live Now by April. Thanks for the invite and the link. It's now on my calendar. Wow! I've heard of appointment television, but appointment reading is a brilliant concept!

59Poquette
Fev 21, 2011, 3:38 pm

Muse -- welcome to you as well. Hope you'll find a comfortable corner here to share whatever comes to mind -- bookishly, of course.

Me thinks thee overstates the expertise bit. I merely reprocess what I read and regurgitate it here mostly for my own benefit so I'll remember it. After all, the little gray cells are dwindling as the years pass. My proclivities lean heavily toward history, but my little summaries are no more remarkable than the hundreds of masterly reviews I read every day written by the talented members of this group. Thank heaven for this forum!

60ChocolateMuse
Fev 21, 2011, 8:48 pm

thou art too modest, methinkest.

61Poquette
Fev 22, 2011, 5:52 pm

The High Medieval Dream Vision: Poetry, Philosophy and Literary Form by Kathryn L. Lynch. Stanford University Press, 1988

My apologies at the outset for the length of this review. I wrote about Chapter 1 in an earlier post, and the book as a whole is discussed here.

The High Medieval Dream Vision is a scholarly work that cannot be easily summarized. It was written for an academic audience and is probably most comprehensible if one has read or is reading the works covered. Kathryn Lynch is both psychologist and literary critic as she explains how philosophical dream vision poetry evolved over the course of a millennium. She discusses the literary precedents from late antiquity including the Consolation of Philosophy by Boethius, and explains why this genre resonated so deeply among medieval people who were first and foremost religious and yet trying to deal with the real world around them.

The philosophical dream vision appeared in many varieties and subgenres. Many reflected the recorded testimony of religious conversion, and many were secular compositions that consciously adopted the dream vision form to describe a pilgrimage towards a psychological, philosophical or even religious enlightenment. Most of the secular visions were in poetic form and were written to entertain and enlighten.

Lynch points out that an understanding of the medieval attitude towards poetry and the arts is helpful in getting to the bottom of why the dream vision was so popular. Christianity was at the foundation of all intellectual discourse, and Christian doctrine created a suspicion of the arts in general because of their close association with the classical past. The works of many great writers and philosophers such as Plato, Aristotle and Cicero, to name only a few, were shunned by the Christian fathers as pagan. Because they were not Christian per se and did not directly reflect Christian values, they were considered unworthy of consideration regardless of the high ethical value of these writings.

Another issue concerned the medieval notion of human psychology, in the broadest sense. The prevailing belief was that human thought processes were of three types: intellect or reason, imagination and memory. The faculty of reason was thought to be superior to the faculty of imagination. Poetry was a function of imagination, and therefore, it was inferior to works that primarily called upon reasoning and intellect.

A further prevailing medieval value was that any writing, whether religious or secular, should have as its goal the improvement of the mind or spirit. In a sense, readers (and church authorities) demanded that written works convey a message of uplift.

Over the course of many years, centuries even, the notion that dreams somehow could be a bridge between the imagination and the intellect took hold. The dream vision was seen as similar to a rite of passage or a pilgrimage, and an otherworldly experience in a dream state had transformative value. In essence, medieval poets were writing about human psychological growth.

After laying all the above groundwork – and more – Lynch devotes a separate chapter each to Alain de Lille’s De planctu naturae, Jean de Meun’s Roman de la Rose, Dante’s Purgatorio and John Gower’s Confessio Amantis. Each has a slightly different take on the poetic philosophical vision, but they all reflect three stages that the dreamer or visionary experiences, which are similar to any rite of passage or heroic pilgrimage that we are familiar with in literature: a separation from familiar surroundings, an unsettling realm or dimension that creates serious physical or psychic challenges, and a transformation where the dreamer awakens and returns to familiar surroundings but with a heightened understanding.

This is a challenging book and can be referred to as a resource when attempting to read and understand the type of vision or dream poetry it describes. Because of the academic nature of this book, I’ll give it three stars, simply because it goes into more detail than the average reader will in all likelihood want to deal with.

62baswood
Fev 22, 2011, 7:14 pm

Hi Suzanne,

Thank you for the excellent review of what sounds like a difficult thesis. I particularly like your summary of the groundwork, which is very clear and it is something I can refer to when reading medieval texts. I will copy it and put it on my notepad.

From my understanding Christianity was indeed at the foundation of all intellectual discourse. Johan Huizinga makes the point that everybody went round with their heads stuffed full of religious images. That's something to easily lose sight of and why I think its so important to understand this when reading medieval texts. Dream visions themselves are also fascinating and I suppose they were something that could easily be grasped by the medieval mind.

63Poquette
Fev 23, 2011, 2:43 am

Thanks for your comment, Barry. Yes, it was difficult but rewarding in the end. I'll be pleased if this turns out to be useful to you.

Speaking of Huizinga, I've had that on my shelf for a while and I've really got to squeeze it into my reading program, soon.

64dchaikin
Fev 23, 2011, 8:56 am

finding your thread absolutely fascinating...

65labfs39
Fev 23, 2011, 11:41 am

The High Medieval Dream Vision is a scholarly work that cannot be easily summarized.

...but you do a wonderful job of it. Thanks for reading it and letting all of us benefit!

66Poquette
Fev 23, 2011, 2:05 pm

dchaikin -- Thanks! Glad I'm not the only one who's fascinated! LOL -- It's turning out to be heavier than I'd expected. Got to turn the corner soon and lighten up.

Lisa -- it's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. I really stepped out of my comfort zone on that one since I'm not to be confused with "academic." I'm way too irreverent, truth to tell. And thank you!

67janemarieprice
Fev 23, 2011, 4:02 pm

Nice review. It is indeed a fascinating subject.

68Poquette
Fev 23, 2011, 4:55 pm

Jane, did I notice that you have a copy of The High Medieval Dream Vision? Do you have anything to add? I'd be interested in your perspective.

69janemarieprice
Fev 23, 2011, 9:13 pm

68 - Nope. I just added it to the wishlist so I'd remember it. :)

70Poquette
Editado: Fev 24, 2011, 4:12 am

Or let my Lamp at midnight hour,
Be seen in some high lonely Towr,
Where I may oft out-watch the Bear,
With thrice great Hermes, or unsphear
The spirit of Plato to unfold
What Worlds, or what vast Regions hold
The immortal mind that hath forsook
Her mansion in this fleshly nook

John Milton, from "Il Penseroso"

71baswood
Fev 24, 2011, 8:17 pm

#70
This had me searching out my copy of Complete English poems of Education Areopagitica. Wonderful stuff: Milton in melancholia. "Hail, divinest melancholy."
When I re-read the poem tonight I came across names that sounded familiar and realised that Milton refers to Chaucer's unfinished squires tale in The Canterbury tales:

Or call up him that left half told
The story of Cambuscan bold,
Of Camball, and of Algarsife,
And who had Canace to wife,
That owned the virtuous ring and glass,
And of the wondrous horse of brass
On which the Tartar king did ride;

Lovely extract you have chosen Suzanne.

72Poquette
Editado: Fev 25, 2011, 4:08 am


Barry, Had tunes from Handel's L'Allegro, Il Penseroso running through my head, and now I get the two poems mixed up because Handel's librettist mixed them up for dramatic effect. Have loved these poems since childhood, if you count high school! Do you know the Handel work? Maybe not your piece of cake. But Handel rules supreme in my pantheon of godlike antecedents.

The final aria -- duet, actually -- wasn't even by Milton, but it's luscious in melody and sentiment:

As steals the morn upon the night,
And melts the shades away,
So truth does Fancy's charm dissolve
And rising Reason puts to flight
The fumes that did the mind involve,
Restoring intellectual day.

73baswood
Fev 25, 2011, 10:51 am

Suzanne,
No I don't know the Handel work. I think perhaps I should because I do like his operas'. I have Ariodante and Julio cesar in my collection

74ncgraham
Fev 25, 2011, 11:04 am

I should listen to that. I love Handel, and Milton. I do think I know the duet, actually.

75Poquette
Editado: Fev 25, 2011, 2:59 pm

Barry and Nathan: Julius Caesar -- I have the American version with Beverly Sills -- was the first vocal/choral work of Handel that I discovered after having grown up with Messiah. But sometime you should give a listen to Theodora, which is also wall-to-wall gorgeous music. I could list half a dozen more, but don't want to overdo it! ;-)

And with regard to the L'Allegro duet, it was featured on a British TV documentary entitled A Night With Handel that aired here on Ovation TV about a decade ago.

76ncgraham
Fev 25, 2011, 5:36 pm

I have the Sills recording too. In fact, I was listening to it the other night—not the whole thing, but the 5 Cleopatra arias. Good stuff. One of our local companies is doing it in May, and I think I'll try to go. They're importing 3—count 'em, 3—countertenors for the male roles. Should be interesting. That's about the aesthetic opposite of the old NYCO production.

(Actually, now I remember, not so: the company is also importing the sets from Sills' old production. A bit of history, in its way. I'll have to go just for that.)

77Poquette
Fev 26, 2011, 4:55 am

I dare say the performance will be closer to Handel's original. But how do you top Norman Treigle's basso coloratura? Seeing the old production will be amazing. Color me green with envy.

78ncgraham
Editado: Fev 26, 2011, 10:41 am

Treigle is awesome, and I dearly wish we had video footage of him in all his best roles, but I have to admit that I prefer a mezzo a Caesar. I mean, how can you beat this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHoojEA95qk

And I fully admit I'll be attending mostly for the aesthetics of the thing. The costumes, unlike the sets, are new, but they're very beautiful:



EDIT: Sorry for eating up your thread, but you can't bring an opera up without me saying anything! :P

79Poquette
Editado: Fev 26, 2011, 2:06 pm

Don't apologize. I launched that trial balloon about Handel to see who would come out of the woodwork, and I'm absolutely delighted to see I have a musical kindred spirit here. Thank you for that link and the costume illustration. I'm not sorry!

One more link and then I've got to go write a book review.

I found "As steals the morn upon the night" which was bootleged from the L'Allegro recording I mentioned above. It features Lynn Dawson and Ian Bostridge (NOT my favorite tenor but this will do in a pinch).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuIlfNu29hM

ETA how glorious was your link! Spectacular singing!

80Poquette
Fev 26, 2011, 4:31 pm

Just finished reading in the wee small hours Frances Yates' The Occult Philosophy in the Elizabethan Age. Review to follow.

Coincidentally, yesterday's mail featured my eagerly awaited copy of The Real Rule of Four to go with the other Hypnerotomachia-related books previously announced (#39) as current reading. However, in scanning the introduction, I'm thinking I may be a bit ahead of myself with those three books. So I'm going to preempt that list and squeeze in The Pagan Dream of the Renaissance, also by Joscelyn Godwin, and which is sitting here on my table TBR.

81Poquette
Editado: Mar 24, 2011, 9:39 pm

When I first became interested in following the strains of paganism that have made their way through the centuries into our Western Christian and philosophical traditions, I had no clue as to what I was letting myself in for. I thought I might read a few books on the subject, and that would be that. This particular path into the field of intellectual and religious history leads to so many byways and forks in the road that one could spend a lifetime and never quite completely arrive at the intended destination. So I must be careful to keep sight of what brought me into this realm of ideas and try to stick to the main arteries.

The Occult Philosophy runs the risk of leading me off the main course, but it is so repleat with surprisingly relevant background information of the sort I didn't even know I needed, that I've already forgiven myself for any detour that might be involved. But I hardly know where to begin.

The Occult Philosophy in the Elizabethan Age by Frances Yates. Routledge, 2001.

Much, much more than an introduction to Elizabethan Age philosophy, this book is divided into three parts. The first part lays the medieval philosophical groundwork going back as far as Ramond Lull in the 13th century, the second part deals with philosophy in the Elizabethan Age itself, and the third part is a kind of coda which briefly covers the aftermath, including the philosophy underlying John Milton's work.

One reason this book is so intriguing to me is that it delves into subjects of which I have been only dimly aware. Esoteric subjects such as Cabala (as Yates spells it) or Kabbalah, Hermeticism and Alchemy are way off the beaten path for me mostly because I have believed them to be somehow outside the mainstream. But this just goes to show you how a little bit of ignorance goes a long way. There was a time in the Middle Ages when these were at the very center of religious and philosophical inquiry. The word "occult" which means hidden, has come to be associated with astrology and fortune telling and the paranormal in our time, or "knowledge that is meant to be kept hidden." In the Middle Ages and Renaissance periods, esoteric subjects were excavated for hidden truths and deep meanings and not for the deterministic purposes associated with, for example, astrology today.

Renaissance philosophers in Italy, in addition to their "discovery" of the lost works of Plato and Aristotle, were deeply engrossed in the philosophical aspects of Hermeticism, Christian Cabala and alchemy. These esoteric ideas were written about and adopted more for their mystical God-seeking aspects than the so-called black magic. Christianity might have taken a more mystical turn had the authorities not misunderstood the high minded spiritual intent of the writings of such Renaissance luminaries as Marsilio Ficino, Pico della Mirandola, Giordano Bruno and others.

As the Renaissance was waning in Italy, it was just getting started in England. In Italy those who pursued the arcane and occult philosophies were persecuted at the time of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, but were becoming very much a part of the intellectual climate in England, which was pretty much isolated from the scourge of the Counter-Reformation. Poets such as Spenser, Raleigh and even Shakespeare used a great deal of esoteric symbolism in their works, which Yates explains using examples from their writings. And John Dee, who was important in establishing the public image and cult of Queen Elizabeth, was very much a part of this esoteric philosophical school of thought. It fell out of favor during the reign of James I, but after the Restoration it experienced a resurgence in the person and poetry of John Milton.

This is the barest oversimplified sketch of the material covered in The Occult Philosophy and doesn't begin to elucidate what really is going on between the covers. I highly recommend this amazing book to readers who are interested in the foundations of Renaissance philosophy and literature.

edited to correct spelling error

82baswood
Fev 27, 2011, 4:38 am

Suzanne, The Occult Philosophy in the Elizabethan age sounds fascinating. Thanks for another excellent review. The references to the poets of the Elizabethan age and after would make it worth reading for me. Its interesting to pick up from your review that Alchemy is not so much on the outside of the culture of the times. I have wondered about this since reading Chaucer's Canon Yeoman's tale, which takes alchemy as its main subject. Another book to add to the to buy list

83zenomax
Fev 27, 2011, 5:57 am

81 another splendid account of an interesting book. I like the way you take us with you on your journey through a book Suzanne. It is a real skill you have.

Also this book gets into an area which, like you, I have little knowledge of, other than some glimmerings that it is important to understand. For me it was Jung's interest in this area which sparked my interest in it.

84Poquette
Fev 27, 2011, 5:06 pm

Barry, Alchemy was not only NOT on the outside -- along with Hermeticism and Cabala/Kabbalah -- it was right there in front of everybody. They were writing books about it, even corresponding with the Pope! After it fell into disfavor with the church for various reasons, then it went deep underground. People fled Italy in fear of their lives because they had been so up front about it early on and suddenly they were treated like heretics. It is an immensely interesting aspect of intellectual history that gets pretty much swept under the rug nowadays because of that little word "occult," which has taken on such culturally negative undertones.

85Poquette
Fev 27, 2011, 5:14 pm

Zeno, Thank you for your very kind words! I want very much to bring you along on my journey and hope my little reviews are helpful in that regard. Also thank you for contributing to the discourse. I realize my reading interests are way out in left field, so I welcome your contributions to the discussion.

I think you would find The Occult Philosophy very interesting. BTW, I found several of Yates' books online available for downloading -- including The Art of Memory and Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition -- so I snapped them up. Hoping to squeeze them into my reading very soon.

86Poquette
Fev 27, 2011, 5:19 pm

What I just said to Zeno goes for you too, Barry! Many thanks for your kind words as well and for your interest.

And everybody else who might be interested, as well! :-)

87Poquette
Editado: Mar 1, 2011, 2:14 am



My library . . . When I first installed my books I looked upon it as a sanctuary into which I could escape from the world outside. Each book was a magic carpet which, at my bidding, transported me from one country to another, from the present back to centuries gone by, gratifying my slightest whim in response to the mere effort of changing volumes. My library has lost none of that blissful peace as a retreat, but in addition it has become a veritable meeting ground. The authors I have known are always waiting for me there, to disclose to me through their works far more than they, in all modesty, would have admitted . . .

In Quest of the Perfect Book, William Dana Orcutt, 1926

88baswood
Mar 1, 2011, 9:25 am

I like the quotation from In quest of the perfect book. It got me to thinking whether many people have libraries at home these days. Most people will just have book shelves dotted around the house. I have a little room upstairs in the house which is full of CD racks and bookshelves, it also contains my stereo system and laptop and on the floor are piles of Times Literary Supplements and London Reviews, which I am trying to work my way through. I am also sharing the room with Alphonse for the time being. He is a friend's cat who seems to have made his home in my room. He will be going back home next week when his owners return from India.

I wonder if other people have libraries or a reading room at home. There is a wonderful picture on Nathan's thread.

89dchaikin
Mar 1, 2011, 10:13 am

#81...I could repost what I wrote in post #64 above. You've made me want to read that Yates book.

90labfs39
Mar 1, 2011, 2:56 pm

What a lovely interlude to come to your post and find such a beautifully illuminated page and warm quote. Plus my daughter, who is seven, became interested in what I was looking at. I was quick to pull out a book of illuminated texts to share with her. Thank you for inspiring a new generation to rare book appreciation!

91Poquette
Mar 1, 2011, 10:18 pm

#88 - Barry, I have a small room that has built-in bookshelves on three walls, which I call my den, and that also houses my TV/entertainment and a comfortable place to sit and read. However, only about ten percent of my books are in there. The rest are in seven-foot-high bookcases in the hallway and a couple of bedrooms. Would that one could afford room for a truly ample library. And yes, Nathan's library gives me a bit of a pleasurable frisson every time I see that picture!

#89 - dchaikin -- If you are into Renaissance history and philosophy, the Yates book will raise your eyebrows. It did mine.

#90 - Lisa, please tell your daughter that the manuscript page is from the Ellesmere manuscript of the Canterbury Tales. Back in my librarian days, a friend of mine knew the librarian at the Huntington Library in California which owns many treasures, including the Ellesmere MS. I was privileged to have an inside tour and to turn the leaves with carefully gloved hands -- also the Gutenberg Bible -- and so I feel a personal connection there. You can see a larger picture at the Huntington Library web site.

92baswood
Mar 2, 2011, 7:13 am

Suzanne, I didn't realise that your picture on #87 was the Ellesmere manuscript and I enjoyed seeing it on your link to Huntington Library. It looks wonderful and what a thrill it must have been to turn the leaves. Is it illustrated throughout or just on the front-piece?

93baswood
Editado: Mar 2, 2011, 7:18 am

sorry - adouble entry

94Poquette
Mar 2, 2011, 1:22 pm

Barry, I could have sworn the Huntington had more pages on view, but they are constantly changing. So I dug a little deeper and came up with a site that has the entire Ellesmere Chaucer on view, and you can page through the whole thing. Except for front matter, most of the pages are illuminated. The page shown above is from the Knight's Tale. At any rate, the link is to a "key" which I thought would interest you because it gives the first few lines for each page in Middle English, and you click at the top to go to the leaves themselves. Enjoy!

95Poquette
Mar 2, 2011, 6:28 pm

Has anyone read Any Human Heart by William Boyd? I saw the Masterpiece Theater production from the UK -- final instalment over the weekend --and it is lingering in my thoughts. Was wondering how the book is. Anybody else see it?

96theaelizabet
Mar 3, 2011, 4:10 am

I still have the last installment to watch. I was so annoyed by the first installment that I almost didn't watch the rest, but the second installment has grabbed me and I'm looking forward to more of Jim Broadbent in the third.

97Poquette
Mar 3, 2011, 4:24 pm

The Pagan Dream of the Renaissance, by Joscelyn Godwin. Boston, 2005.

Meet Cardinal Ippolito II d’Este (1509-72) the moving force behind creation of the famed gardens at Villa d’Este in Tivoli, near Rome. Under his inspiration, what Joscelyn Godwin calls “the archetypal garden experience” was dedicated to engendering an atmosphere conducive to meditation based on classical themes, the general effect being comparable to that intended by Christian cathedrals.

Then there is Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta (1419-68), who is best known as a rival to the Borgias in terms of his vice and cruelty, yet he sponsored the exquisite repurposing of a Christian church in Rimini into a temple to the pagan gods (the Tempio Maletestiano) that reflects a decidedly Neoplatonic influence. Godwin gives a fascinating tour of this structure and shows how it manages to create a unique world in microcosm within its walls.

One of the most fascinating figures in all of Renaissance Italy was Federigo da Montefeltro (1422-82), Duke of Urbino, who caused to be created an exquisite studiolo for his own contemplation and retreat. The room is famous for its wooden inlay panels that surround the room and create the impression that cupboards and shelves are filled with objets d’art, yet it is all an illusion made by skilled workers in wood.

The Medicis beginning with Piero and culminating in Grand Duke Cosimo III (1642-1723) had a “passion for collecting rare and beautiful objects.” A collecting fever seems to have caught hold of a number of wealthy Renaissance figures, and Godwin shows how this obsession to collect was a function of the very human need to create a sort of alternate reality that transports one away from real world cares.

Consider the Tarocchi of Mantegna (c. 1460) which represented a “determined effort to map out the hierarchy of being” in a set of fifty engravings. These should not be confused with Tarot cards nor with the artistic output of Andrea Mantegna, but as Godwin says, this is how they have been identified through the centuries. If one wants a graphic example of the cosmos summarized in a nutshell, this is it.

These are but a few examples of the personalities and artifacts which influenced the way educated people began to change their world view from what it had been for over a millenium.

The Pagan Dream explores two convergent concepts that began to manifest themselves in the creative endeavors in Renaissance Italy. One was the notion that the cosmos has a dreamlike quality to it, and the dream state which occurs during sleep is the source of inspiration and transformation. An early literary example was the Hypnerotomachia Poliphili, which is an extended dream text. The other concerned the apparent urge to create self-contained worlds – alternative and wondrous. An early example of that was The Divine Comedy, and the Hypnerotomachia was actually a pagan response to Dante. As Godwin eloquently points out, “A contradiction runs throughout the Renaissance: that the world is but a dream, and yet it is sacred.”

This is not merely a book about art history but about the entire cosmos, if you will, of the Renaissance. Godwin tells us, “This book sets out to show how the dream of an alternative pagan cosmos entered the European imagination through the visual and performing arts.” And this dream vision seems to have appeared soon after certain Platonic and Hermetic texts were translated into Latin around the year 1460.

The Pagan Dream explores how the restoration to Western Europe of classical learning manifested itself in the artistic outpouring of 15th and 16th century Italy. This manifestation took many forms, each of which is explored in detail – in painting, architecture, gardens, festivals, opera, and in that ultimate – all be it not Italian – microcosm of Versailles.

This is not a travel guide, but after reading it, I have a distinct urge to return to Italy with this book in hand and explore first hand what has been revealed here.

98baswood
Mar 3, 2011, 7:46 pm

Still frolicking amongst the pagans then Suzanne. Loved your review and the book sounds fascinating. You say that the book is not a travelogue but I wonder how many people have visited these places with book in hand and then have seen things that most other people would not. I have put it on my list to read when I get to the Renaissance.

Thank you for the link to the Ellesmere Chaucer, which gave me a lot of pleasure this afternoon.

99Poquette
Mar 4, 2011, 4:45 pm

Barry, Glad you enjoyed the Ellesmere Chaucer. Somehow I thought that would interest you.

Can't seem to let go of the pagans yet. I'm totally in their grip.

100Poquette
Mar 4, 2011, 7:50 pm

Another in my pursuit of pagan wisdom . . .

The Golden Thread by Joscelyn Godwin. Quest Books, 2007.

Subtitled "The Ageless Wisdom of the Western Mystery Traditions," this book amounts to a handbook that describes the various approaches that have been passed down to us since classical antiquity to the pursuit of esoteric wisdom. Godwin describes the beliefs and practices of each movement, explaining how each was perceived by contemporaries in a Christian world that showed little or no tolerance to beliefs and practices that ran counter to the prescribed order. Whole chapters are devoted to an amazing range of schools of thought: the prisca theologia (ancient theology); Hermetic, Orphic, Pythagorian, Platonic and Gnostic philosophies, as well as theosophy, the pagan Renaissance, Rosicrucians, Alchemy, Jung and more. Each chapter is brief, but end notes are filled with multiple references to a vast array of further reading, making this a useful and informative book.

Godwin writes from a point of view that is obviously sympathetic with esoteric approaches to belief. He concludes by arguing for esoteric tradition as a third way between dogmatic religion and materialistic science. He seems to have lost faith equally in the spiritual efficacy of institutional religions on the one hand, and atheism on the other, which denies even "the existence of any psychical or spiritual reality."

For a short treatment of a broad subject, I give this book high marks for its clarity and organized presentation of subject matter that is a mystery to many, myself included.

101baswood
Mar 5, 2011, 6:59 am

Suzanne, I saw The Golden Thread when searching out Joscelyn Godwin on Amazon and wondered what this book was about. Your review has answered that question. Keep up the good work.

102GCPLreader
Mar 5, 2011, 9:40 am

Suzanne, I read Any Human Heart at the end of last year and really enjoyed it. I thought the PBS movie was so well done-- the 2nd and 3rd episodes were especially moving. The movie really only left out one story thread from the novel-- the hippie girl, (is it Monday?) that knew his son.

103Poquette
Editado: Mar 5, 2011, 1:33 pm

Re Any Human Heart:

#96 and #102 - Thea and Jenny, nice to see you here. Been lurking on your threads. 'Preciate your comments. For some reason I didn't see yours before, Thea. Your post must have come while I was working on my own magnum opus that followed shortly thereafter. Oh well . . . better late than never!

At any rate, I'm thinking of adding this to my overloaded TBR, or maybe I should just buy the DVD and watch it again. For some reason, I found the whole thing very moving. Jim Broadbent was wonderful. He has such beautiful eyes which I hadn't noticed before.

104zenomax
Mar 5, 2011, 1:45 pm

Suzanne - I think I see where the 2007 quote you messaged me about comes from now!

I have been hoping to resist any urge to buy the books you have spoken about, relying instead on your excellent excerpts and musings. But the Godwin book may be one I cannot ignore...

105Poquette
Mar 6, 2011, 12:29 pm

Godwin is an interesting character, Barry. How does a professor of music get so deeply involved in esoterica? If you haven't seen it already, here is a link to Godwin's web site. Between him and Frances Yates, I seem to have found two new favorite authors.

106Poquette
Mar 6, 2011, 12:32 pm

Ah, Zeno, but which Godwin? You'll note there are two. Presumably you speak of The Golden Thread and not The Pagan Dream. The quote I sent you is from end note 7 in Chapter 7, if you're curious. I hope I didn't misrepresent the Jung factor. There isn't actually a chapter devoted to him, but he does get talked about enough that I was initially left with that impression.

107baswood
Mar 6, 2011, 6:02 pm

Suzanne, had a look at the web site. He has published an intriguing selection of articles. An interesting character and if you warm to his writing one well worth following up. Good hunting.

108Poquette
Mar 7, 2011, 3:15 pm

Barry - There's a lot of Godwin's work that doesn't interest me, but oddly enough I have two more of his efforts at hand. He translated the Hypnerotomachia Poliphili and wrote The Real Rule of Four to decipher The Rule of Four, of which I'm sure you're aware. I just finished reading another book about the printer of the original Hypnerotomachia. The review follows.

109Poquette
Editado: Mar 7, 2011, 3:41 pm

Aldus and His Dream Book by Helen Barolini. Italica Press, 1992

This book is about the Venetian Renaissance printer Aldus Manutius, a scholar who eventually was able to use his training to edit the Greek texts that were rapidly appearing in Europe from the Eastern Empire for the first time. As a young man he was a retainer in the court of a minor noble. At some point he went to Venice where he found a way -- no one knows how -- to become a printer/publisher.

His great fame as a printer/publisher rests on perhaps three major achievements. First was his improvement to the readability of roman fonts and to book design. He effectively created the "pocket book." Before Aldus, books were set in Gothic type, and they were large, heavy and not meant to be carried around.

Additionally, he invented Italic type. His goal was to create a typeface that would capture the look of handwriting. In fact, the handwriting that he was trying to emulate was the so-called "chancery" hand that had long been used by the Vatican in its official documents.

His crowning achievement, however, is considered to be his publication of the Hypnerotomachia Poliphili in 1499. He produced this after only a few years in the printing business. It was considered to be the most beautiful book printed up to that time. The Gutenberg Bible and the Hypnerotomachia are spoken of by historians as the bookends surrounding the period that has been labeled "incunabula," that is, books published during the first fifty years, or the "cradle" of printing.

Helen Barolini's essay on Aldus is succinct, providing the essentials of Aldus' life and contributions both to scholarship and to publishing. The physical design of the book tries to mimic the look of the Hypnerotomachia and includes many reproduced pages plus all the woodblock engravings from that book and a descriptive list of them at the back which partly explains them. This list actually is helpful to readers of the English translation or any of the offshoots it has spawned, such as The Rule of Four and The Real Rule of Four. On the whole, the book provides a glimpse into a fascinating aspect of Renaissance history. I would rate this book at four stars.

110Poquette
Editado: Mar 8, 2011, 1:13 am

Thanks to timjones, I have discovered a new genre -- science fiction poetry! I'm suffering shock and awe at what I found at sfpoetry.com. Here is a sample that particularly delighted me:

At the Luxarium

"If people could put rainbows in zoos, they'd do it."
—Bill Watterson, Calvin and Hobbes

Only after you have taken in the bottled lightning
and the snow-globe aurorae, will you come
to the caged spectra. (This season, in order
to see the other most-popular attraction,
Blake's Tygers, you must come at night.)

Here, imprismed, all seven of the banded hues
can be seen, radiantly arrayed in sickle form
between two great stanchions of white light.

The reds, the oranges, the yellows,
followed by the darker tints
(perhaps hinting at equatorial roots,
perhaps not—the genetics of
colored light remain controversial)
all of them quite naked,
the underthings of the natural
world, the sun's petticoats.

As however the cones of your eyes
can be permanently seared
by the vividness of the display
(to say nothing of its prurience),
a five-minute viewing limit is once
again suggested.

Not a problem. There's always your
cellphone-cam to capture photos
for later delectation.

And so when your three hundred seconds
are up, you force yourself to move on,

emerging once again,
dazzled and shaking,

into the pure monochrome of sunlight.

—Robert Borski

111zenomax
Mar 8, 2011, 10:01 am

Yes.

Yes to everything.

the genetics of
colored light remain controversial,


I'm feel sure that CB would have had an exact view on this very subject.

112Poquette
Mar 8, 2011, 4:19 pm

Natural things exist only a little;
reality lies only in dreams.


Charles Baudelaire, Paradis artificiels

113zenomax
Editado: Mar 9, 2011, 4:28 am

Precisely!

114timjones
Mar 10, 2011, 2:41 am

Though I can't claim credit for Robert Borski's poem, I'm pleased to have been the spark of this new enthusiasm, Poquette!

115janemarieprice
Mar 10, 2011, 4:49 pm

Catching up here; you have a lot of fascinating reading going on.

The Pagan Dream of the Renaissance went right on the wishlist. Many things there I have studied and visited.

The Occult Philosophy in the Elizabethan Age also sounded very interesting.

Cruious about Aldus and His Dream Book as well.

Keep up the great reviews.

116arubabookwoman
Mar 12, 2011, 2:01 am

I'm lurking, and following along with your many interesting (and esoteric) reads and your comments. Unfortunately, in general I don't know enough about most of the subjects to comment intelligently, but you are piqueing my interest.

117Poquette
Mar 12, 2011, 3:17 pm

#114 - Thanks for stopping by. My literary world has been enlarged, thanks to you, Tim!

#115 - Jane, I'm so glad you are enjoying my reviews. It's good to have you following along with me. BTW, I just finally got around to reading your thread. You have such a wide spectrum -- especially enjoy your forays into the local art scene.

#116 - Welcome to my little bookaccino, arubabookwoman. Believe me, I don't know much about the subjects I'm reading about, either, which is one reason the whole area is so intriguing to me. If I had it to do over again, I think I would have gone into intellectual history. There is so much to explore there. Stay tuned, and we'll learn together!

118baswood
Mar 13, 2011, 1:45 am

Hi Suzanne. You have not been around for a few days. After reading all that sci-fi poetry on the excellent Tim Jones thread I thought you may have been abducted by aliens

119Poquette
Mar 13, 2011, 5:45 am

Barry, I almost wish I had been. Inundated with work and trying to get some serious reading in -- had to sacrifice somewhere! ;-)

120dchaikin
Mar 13, 2011, 10:31 am

Fascinating as always Suzanne.

121Poquette
Mar 17, 2011, 3:42 am

I have a correction to make:

Somewhere along the line -- around the time he was elected -- I had heard discussions that the new Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, was an unbeliever. I don't remember the context -- possibly something to do with the change in status of the Book of Common Prayer, but I may have a faulty memory there as well, so I won't compound my error by saying more about that. I should have checked my facts before I went shooting off my mouth. It appears that this is untrue and I am very sorry I said what I did earlier in this thread. One of the sad things about it is that I have no personal stake in the matter and I absolutely hate that I have promoted such an eggregious misrepresentation, however unwittingly. I had no idea how wrong that was. My sincere apologies.

122deebee1
Mar 17, 2011, 1:58 pm

Thanks for clearing that up -- we were talking about the Angus book when you mentioned it. No harm done -- I didn't pass along the juicy tidbit to others... :-)

123Poquette
Editado: Mar 18, 2011, 4:50 pm

I have been reading A World Undone: The Story of the Great War, 1914 to 1918 by G.J. Meyer as part of the group read over in Le Salon. I have finished the book and have posted some comments in the Part 6 Discussion Thread, which you can read if you are interested. There are several chapter references in that discussion but no page references because I was reading it on my Kindle. One of the drawbacks of e-books, apparently.

Despite certain faults, this is a pretty good one volume history of World War I. I particularly like the way it is organized. The book is very well-written, and if one is interested in delving further into the war, this is an excellent starting point. I was thinking as I was reading that it could almost serve as the basis of an outline.

Several readers have uncovered some minor factual errors of the type you might expect in a book that is really a summary of a period of history that could actually fill whole libraries, but facts are easily checked and I don't think this should dissuade anyone from reading the book. When you finish, you will have an excellent survey of who, why, where, what and when. I give the book four stars mostly because of its clarity, excellent organization of complex material and generally engaging readability.

124baswood
Mar 18, 2011, 9:15 pm

Hi Suzanne, How did you find the group read at Le Salon? Did it enhance your reading experience?

125Poquette
Mar 19, 2011, 3:30 am

It was pretty interesting, Barry. I shouldn't say "was" too quickly. I don't think we're finished yet. I hope there will be some discussion of the book before we're done to kind of tie up loose ends.

126Poquette
Mar 21, 2011, 9:34 pm

Was waxing eloquent talking about Red Mars on another thread and ended up expanding it into a review which is now posted here. At the risk of being repetitive, this was my all-time favorite science fiction book, which I read probably in 1995. So it doesn't count for this year's reading.

127ncgraham
Editado: Mar 21, 2011, 10:53 pm

1995? Sounds like it's time for a reread!

Edit: Excellent review!

128Poquette
Mar 22, 2011, 3:40 am

Hi Nathan! Thanks. Are you a science fictionado? Would love to reread, but have you seen my pile of TBRs??? I'm beginning to feel like Don Quixote because it's tilting!

129baswood
Mar 22, 2011, 5:04 am

Hi Suzanne. I can't quite share your enthusiasm for Red Mars. I must have read it a decade ago at least and thought it good enough to get the trilogy, however Green Mars was one of the very few books that I failed to finish; so many longueurs. They are all still sitting on my shelves and so I suppose I will start them again at some time, but club 2011 is dangerous as I also have a huge pile of books (Pisa comes to mind) on my to read pile.

130timjones
Mar 22, 2011, 7:01 am

>126 Poquette:, 129: That's an excellent review, Suzanne, and as you know I share your enthusiasm for Red Mars. I love Green Mars too, baswood, but I found Blue Mars a bit of a struggle, both the first time I read it and when I re-read the trilogy recently. There are so many fictional constitutional conventions I can take.

131Poquette
Mar 22, 2011, 1:45 pm

Barry and Tim,

I realize the drawbacks of the Mars trilogy, and I recognize that not every book is for every reader. And I say Vive la difference!

Tim, you have touched on the one aspect of the Mars series that I was mildly dissatisfied with. While I admired Robinson's willingness to create a new world out of whole cloth, political development included, that was the least interesting aspect for me as well, and his political concept is much different from what mine would have been if I had been writing the books.

132bonniebooks
Mar 22, 2011, 2:36 pm

I read your comments on the other thread, and I have to admit that I was tempted. I'll check it out next time I'm in the bookstore.

133Poquette
Mar 22, 2011, 5:31 pm

Welcome to Bookaccino, Bonnie!

I read your comment on the other thread as well, and it occurs to me that with respect to Red Mars, at least, you might ask yourself if you like the gradiose idea of exploring a new world in the very near future with a group of people who are very resourceful, who are pioneers, if you will, and who know they are making a one-way trip. The enormity of the adventure may or may not captivate everyone.

Of course, the problem with going on and on about a favorite book is that I run the risk of overselling it, which I don't wish to do. And if you have read my thread, you probably have noticed that my reading interests are weird unusual. So please take it all in the spirit given.

134ncgraham
Mar 22, 2011, 6:18 pm

> 128: No, I'm more fantasy than sci-fi. But I've come to some through that genre, and through my love of classics as well, and have even enjoyed a few. And I definitely understand trying to find a balance between rediscovering old favorites and tackling mount TBR. Argh. I tend to be a bit like a pendulum in this regard: years of no rereads followed by months and months full of them.

135timjones
Mar 23, 2011, 2:30 am

> 131, Poquette: I'm quite comfortable with (some of) the political approaches KSR favours - it was just the amount of telling rather than showing in Blue Mars that got to me. But I do give the trilogy as a whole a high rating!

Have you read The Martians, the pendant volume of short stories and material excised from earlier drafts, plus the novella that preceded the trilogy? It's uneven, but the best bits are very good - it's a bit like the "Bonus Features" DVD that comes with a popular movie.

136Poquette
Mar 23, 2011, 4:23 am

>134 ncgraham: Nathan, I've had my periods of rereading, but just now, it seems like I want to read everything in sight all at once and it's not working out. I wish we could eat knowledge -- that way we could kill two birds with one stone. I feel another cliche screaming to get out: So many books, so little time!

> 135 Tim, I am embarrassed to say that I have had The Martians since it first came out -- just had to have it -- and then it got shelved and more or less forgotten. I really must fish that out and read it. Thank you (I think!) for the reminder.

137Poquette
Editado: Mar 24, 2011, 9:40 pm

After cogitating further on all your comments and the premises underlying Red Mars, I would like to give a piece of friendly advice to those of you who are contemplating reading it for the first time in 2011. You may not find some of the technology posited in Red Mars as captivating as I did back in 1995 because so much has become reality since then. Thus, the impact may be significantly lessened. The book was published in 1993, and the state of practical technology has come a long way in 18 years. It is important to try to create within yourself a 1993 mindset. Picture the world as it was then.

In the first place, personal computers were in their relative infancy. I got my first windows-based computer in 1995 and had a dial-up connection to AOL. Think of how much has changed since then.

The Internet and e-mail were also in their relative infancy. I'm not sure when the transformation took place, but in cosmic terms, it was like last week!

Cell phones were big clunky affairs that people had wired up in their cars, but they weren't being toted around by everybody as they are today.

There were no smart GPS phones, and things like iPods or iPads or notebook computers were in the dream stage. Phenomena like Wikipedia, Youtube, and the current state of social networking had probably only been dreamed of, if that.

In 1993, the AI (Artificial Intelligence) devices that everybody carried around with them on 2026 Mars were just very cool, and I remember telling anybody who would listen at the time that I wanted one of those! And here we are less than two decades later and they are almost universal.

Also, some facts are now understood about the earth and its ecology that give one pause when contemplating even the possibility of terraforming Mars, which is at the conceptual foundation of the Mars trilogy.

For example, scientists are now realizing that our moon, our earth's size, its iron core and related magnetic field, our almost perfect distance from the sun, among other factors, give earth life-supporting advantages not shared by Mars. We now understand that the stability of our atmosphere, our stable axis tilt (controlled largely by our large moon), the protection from radiation, and gravity not shared by Mars make the project of recreating a stable atmosphere and terraforming even more daunting than previously thought.

So even Red Mars may already be dated. And of course, my memory of reading it and marveling in the possibilities it contemplated are colored by all of this. It made for very stimulating reading at the time.

edited to correct spelling error

138baswood
Mar 23, 2011, 2:51 pm

I think its a fact of life that some science fiction will date quicker than others. Any writer that attempts to predict what is going to happen in 30 odd years time is probably on less sure ground than someone who pitches his story 2000 years in the future. The point you are making about how It read in 1995 is a valid one and people approaching it for the first time need to be aware of the date it was written.

I am currently reading Doomsday Book, Connie Willis which was published in 1992 and some of the story is set in England in 2054. Unfortunately England in Connie Willis's 2054 sounds more like England in the 1960's and so it would have read as outdated in the 1990's. Another idea for a list: Timeless science fiction. Those books written in the 60's and 70's that are still relevant today. I Jest.

I noticed your review of Red Mars made the hot reviews list and so I think you will get a few converts. Well Done.

139Poquette
Mar 23, 2011, 4:51 pm

Wow! I completely missed it, Barry. It's already gone from the hot list -- at least on my screen. But thanks for telling me about it. That's cool.

I did just noticed that today is Kim Stanley Robinson's birthday! Shall we all hoist a pint?

I take your point about how science fiction dates so rapidly. I suspect that's in the nature of the beast. We could also do a list of retrogressive SF, such as Doomsday Book, which I read way back when and have forgotten much about it. Ironic that it's about time travel.

140Poquette
Mar 25, 2011, 1:38 pm

March 17 came and went and I didn't even notice it. That was the day one year ago that I joined LibraryThing. I was so excited to find this site. So I'm hoisting a cuppa in honor of that date, albeit a week late.

141Poquette
Editado: Mar 27, 2011, 5:51 pm


Chatteau de Chillon

I feel a rather odd connection to Lord Byron and also to Mary Shelley even though I had never read her famous book although I have been meaning to ever since, a few years ago, I spent the better part of a week at Montreux on Lake Geneva. Mary Shelley along with Lord Byron and her husband Percy Bysshe Shelley had spent a summer not far from there, where she apparently conceived of the idea of Frankenstein. Lord Byron, of course, wrote the "Sonnet of Chillon," which was followed sometime later by the three-hundred-plus line "Prisoner of Chillon." The hotel where I stayed was right at lake's edge and a bracing two or three-kilometer walk from the Chateau de Chillon, where I spent the better part of a day. I am haunted (in a good way) by the castle to this day. I actually carried with me a copy of the poem and read it there in the dungeon of Chillon:

My hair is grey, but not with years,
Nor grew it white
In a single night,
As men's have grown from sudden fears:
My limbs are bow'd, though not with toil,
But rusted with a vile repose,
For they have been a dungeon's spoil,
And mine has been the fate of those
To whom the goodly earth and air
Are bann'd, and barr'd-forbidden fare;
But this was for my father's faith
I suffer'd chains and courted death;
That father perish'd at the stake
For tenets he would not forsake;
And for the same his lineal race
In darkness found a dwelling place;
We were seven-who now are one,
Six in youth, and one in age,
Finish'd as they had begun,
Proud of Persecution's rage;
One in fire, and two in field,
Their belief with blood have seal'd,
Dying as their father died,
For the God their foes denied;-
Three were in a dungeon cast,
Of whom this wreck is left the last.


Thus begins "The Prisoner of Chillon," which can be read in its entirety here.

142Poquette
Editado: Mar 27, 2011, 6:05 pm

Frankenstein, or the Modern Prometheus by Mary Shelley

Frankenstein is not the book I was expecting to read. Sadly, I have thoroughly absorbed the Hollywood version as embodied in the frame of and as personified by Boris Karloff. Put all that out of your mind, dear reader, when you sit down to engage Mary Shelley's tale.

Frankenstein has been variously labeled as a classic of literature, science fiction, gothic romance, gothic horror, but in the end, I believe it participates in and yet transcends all. In the end, this is a work of moral fiction.

As is so often the case, it is only upon completion of a book and after a period of contemplation that one can begin to decide what to think of it. The story is full of holes one could veritably walk through, and it demands far more suspension of disbelief than I initially was willing to grant. However, in the end, distinct messages, while not directly stated, are there for one to absorb. In many ways it is reminiscent of the story of Job, about which many of my reactions were similar. I only got around to reading Job a few years ago and was thoroughly outraged by the whole thing if it is to be interpreted in a strictly religious, literal sense as it may be by some. But when read as an allegorical tale, some of the outrage dissipates and one can begin to discern what the story is meant to convey. Job also requires a significant suspension of disbelief before one can get to the root of the matter. Even then, it is hard to take.

But rather than Job, Mary Shelley in her subtitle signaled her intention to connect the story of Frankenstein with the Prometheus myth. It was Prometheus, you will recall, who brought fire to mankind and was forever after punished for the deed. His myth is somehow bound up with that of Pandora, whose infamous box when opened unleashed all the evils in the world. Victor Frankenstein effectively opens Pandora's box when he, Prometheus-like, unleashes the monster on his world. I say his world because the monster lives entirely in the shadows, known only to Victor Frankenstein. Unbelievably, none of the rare human contacts he makes during his brief sojourn are reported widely and would have been met with disbelief in any event.

Frankenstein is the story of two monsters, the creator and the created. Victor Frankenstein, displaying a Shakespearean "vaulting ambition which o'erleaps itself," is obsessed with the idea of creating a living being, and upon accomplishing this feat, at the first sign of life, is frightened out of his wits, abandons his creation and then spends the rest of his life suffering the consequences of both his actions and inactions. On the one hand, he is presumably brilliant and displays a sensitivity to the goodness in those he cares about, but on the other, he is thoughtless of any but himself and his own strange ambitions, and a feckless and dastardly coward when it comes down to mitigating or repairing the damage he has inflicted. It is the monster who murders and destroys all the people Victor cherishes, but it is Victor who is the real monster, because he spent not one iota of a second in contemplating the consequences of his creation.

The reputation of this book far exceeds its actual worth, whether you view it as literature or as a prototype of genre fiction, in my very humble opinion. Balancing its qualities with its obvious defects, I would rate it at 3-1/2 stars.

143baswood
Editado: Mar 27, 2011, 6:21 pm

#141 Hi Suzanne, I enjoyed the poem from your link. The second stanza goes on to describe the prison cell in detail. You must have soaked in the atmosphere reading the poem in the dungeon.

Are you still reading Frankenstein?

I am editing this because your review has just appeared. I remeber reading it ages ago and being underwhelmed, following your review I don't think I missed much and so it will not go on my re-read pile

144Poquette
Editado: Mar 27, 2011, 6:27 pm

Barry, our posts seem to have crossed. As you will undoubtedly have noted by now, I did finish reading Frankenstein, and my review is at #142. As you will see, I found it to be a mixed bag, but I'm glad I read it, finally and at last.

145bragan
Mar 27, 2011, 7:02 pm

Excellent discussion of Frankenstein! I agree that it's not necessarily the greatest novel ever written, but I do think it's very much worth reading, if only because it is so very different from the processed pop culture version most of us have in our minds from constant retellings and parodies and not-entirely-faithful adaptations. What struck me most about it when I read it -- quite a while ago now -- was that the moral of the story, as I saw it, wasn't remotely what I thought it was, based on those second- and fourth- and eighth-hand representations. Here I always thought it was "There are Things Man Was Not Meant to Know, and if you try to play God it'll bite you in the ass" -- a message I have some issues with. But it's not. As I see it, it's about taking responsibility for what you create. I think you have it right in that "it is Victor who is the real monster, because he spent not one iota of a second in contemplating the consequences of his creation." If he had actually dealt with an taken responsibility for that creation, none of the book's tragedy would have happened. To me, that's a much more intelligent and useful moral.

In other words, I think you made an excellent of book for your quest, whatever your final opinion of it!

(By the way, I found your comparison to Job interesting. I was always entirely outraged by Job, myself, and tend to regard it as an excellent example of why I'm glad I'm an atheist. I only became aware of alternate, somewhat less disturbing ways of interpreting it when reading Jennifer Michael Hecht's Doubt: A History last year. I had never thought to compare it to Frankenstein, but I can see how there might be interesting parallels there.)

146ncgraham
Mar 27, 2011, 10:43 pm

Very interesting review, although I'm thinking I need to read it at another time of day to completely understand it. I was about to ask why reading Frankenstein in a strictly religious, literal sense would offend you ... then I realized you were speaking of Job. Heh.

147Poquette
Mar 28, 2011, 1:15 pm

Perhaps I should remove that reference to Job, because it was more about the similarity of my reaction than anything else, although there are some parallels. But I do acknowledge that it is a bit obscure.

148ncgraham
Mar 28, 2011, 1:54 pm

No, don't! It was a good set-up for the discussion of Prometheus.

149Wey-bey
Mar 28, 2011, 5:49 pm

Hi Suz,

I'm impressed with all the additions and updates on your Profile page here. It's quite whelming, so I've only skimed it briefly. Looks great!

I read your review of Frankenstein. As we discussed, it's quite a coincidence that we both are/were reading the same book unbeknownst. Hmmm. Reminds me of The Rise and Fall . . . about 11 years ago.

I agree with nearly all your points of criticism (which are quite severe), but was surprised you gave it a 3.5 Star rating. Either you're an easy grader or you can't quite bring yourself to give a "D" (2.0) grade to such an enduring, seminal and popular work.

To me, the book's appeal lies in its innovative story and the compelling psycho-drama played out in the mind of V. Frankestein. The important events and deeds could be summarized in a page or two. The passive voice and prolix style render it tedious, almost torturous at places. And it took too long (too many words, pages) to get into the real story. But to Ms. Shelly's everlasting credit, it takes an extraordinary imagination to conjure up the contexts and settings and sensations to support the endless ruminations by V. Frankenstein and still keep the story moving along in suspense.

The story's flaws are serious --- clock-stopping gaps in logic and reality both --- especially when it comes to the mental, literary and communication skills suddenly achieved by the "monster" who had nary a day of schooling. It is that colossal leap of ability and the revelation of the "monster's" own benignity and emotions that come not only as a surprise, but which transform the story into an allegory of perhaps infinite meaning and interpretation, including your reference to the Biblical Job.

Overall, the book is alright, but I'd give it a 2.5 or 3.0. It's an interesting tale. Not a great read.

150Poquette
Mar 28, 2011, 10:19 pm

Hey Ed! Thanks for dropping by.

Yes, it's almost unbelievable that we converged on the same book -- again! -- at the same time.

Thanks much for your perspectives. You have perhaps uncovered a flaw in my ratings. It may be that grade inflation has crept into my evaluations. And you also may be right that I was reluctant to award a "D" grade to such a revered classic. Perhaps I should reduce the grade. I'll think about it.

Do stop by again for a chat. You are always welcome!

151Wey-bey
Mar 29, 2011, 2:19 pm

Thanks for your message. I was mostly just teasing you.

On further reflection, I've lessened my objection to Ms. Shelly's tedious writing style, and have been left with the color and awe of the story itself, which is quite compelling and engaging. One could say gripping in places.

Shelley's Frankenstein really is a great story, despite its flaws. It’s wonderfully creative and it presents many surprises. Its twists and turns are anything but common or formulaic. Characters are well developed and quite colorful, with well-painted word-pictures that conjure up vivid images for the mind's eye. The vocabulary is mostly fresh and there are many well-turned phrases (although Shelly has some favorite words that she plugs in every time they'll fit). Truly, it does not deserve a “D” even if we modernists can’t suspend disbelief on some of the details.

My alpha-numerical grading is thus: If an A is 5.0 then a D would be 2.0. That was my thinking. I gave it a D+ or C. On reflection, that’s too severe. It’s certainly worth a solid B (4.0) or even higher. It's a remarkable work. I'm sure many lesser works have often been awarded 5.0s.

Shelly's "defects," while perhaps a bit jarring to us as hypercritical analysts in the world of logic, don’t really detract from the overall cleverness and suspense of the story. It’s rightly judged an extraordinary contribution to literature.

All the best,

Ed

152Poquette
Mar 29, 2011, 3:53 pm

Ed,

I agree that Shelley's word pictures are vivid. In fact, as you read, there is much description of the environs of Lake Geneva and the nearby Alps. Having spent a few days there, it conjured up my own vivid memories. Agreed that there are a number of elements to like about the book, and as retrospect takes hold, I am realizing that the allegorical value of the story lifts it above the ordinary. It should be viewed as a tale which, as a genre, almost always puts excessive demands on ones credulity. I concede that it must not be completely devoid of redeeming qualities since we are still talking about it. And I think I'll let my initial star rating stand.

153Poquette
Editado: Mar 31, 2011, 7:01 pm

On First Looking into Chapman's Homer

Much have I traveled in the realms of gold,
And many goodly states and kingdoms seen;
Round many western islands have I been
Which bards in fealty to Apollo hold.
Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
That deep-browed Homer ruled as his demesne;
Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
Till I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold:
Then felt I like some watcher of the skies
When a new planet swims into his ken;
Or like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes
He stared at the Pacific -- and all his men
Looked at each other with a wild surmise --
Silent, upon a peak in Darien.

-- John Keats (1818)

Nevermind that Balboa -- not Cortes -- saw the Pacific from the mountain crest at Panama (i.e., Darien).

154baswood
Mar 31, 2011, 4:00 am

Hi Suzanne, Reading this sonnet this morning made me realise how many phrases from this have passed into our common vernacular ie: realms of gold, watcher of the skies.

Perhaps Cortez scans better than Balboa

155Poquette
Mar 31, 2011, 5:40 pm

Barry, I love this poem! And how right you are about its impact on our language. I hadn't actually thought of that before, but perhaps that is one reason it resonates. This poem actually inspired me to write a piece of music that is more or less set to the words. With the passage of time, I have concluded that it is probably unsingable, but this musical experience would not have occurred for me without Keats' words. Never composed anything before, nor have I felt so inspired since.

156baswood
Mar 31, 2011, 6:34 pm

Ah the truly wonderful Keats. A master of the first line. So many of his poems start so well. I have the complete poems of John Keats in the Annotated English poets series published by Longman. It was a 21st birthday present.
Happy Reading

157Poquette
Abr 2, 2011, 5:45 am

Just started reading The Confidence-Man by Melville as part of a group read over at Le Salon. This is the third unplanned read that has interposed itself into my agenda. It promises to be a delicious book. The action basically takes place on a Mississippi river boat and is populated with a whole range of unusual characters. Melville references the Canterbury Tales in an early chapter, and I can't help but think he must have had Chaucer in mind as he was writing this book.

It's not too late if you want to join in what promises to be a very literary romp. This is Melville's attempt at satire, comedy, or what-have-you. The images, the language, the wit displayed in the few chapters I have read thus far are absolutely delicious. If you are interested, the thread can be found here. The actual read began on April 1, yesterday, but there is a whole slew of background information that has accumulated over the past couple of weeks that can't help but enrich the whole reading experience. So . . . if you like group reads, this one is going to be a real winner, I think.

158avaland
Abr 2, 2011, 8:45 pm

>141 Poquette: have you read John Crowley's Lord Byron's Novel: The Evening Land? You might really like it. Not only does he do a good job creating a fictional novel by Byron, but there's an interesting storyline around Byron's daughter (who, as you may know, worked on Babbage's computer). The third and contemporary storyline involving the researcher is perhaps the weakest, but still okay.

159Poquette
Abr 3, 2011, 3:34 am

Hi avaland - thanks for that wonderful suggestion. I have some other Crowley novels on tap but not this one. Thanks to your suggestion, I just read some of the LT reviews and I'm sure I would enjoy it. I'll let you know what I think when the time comes. Thanks for stopping by! ;-)

160baswood
Abr 3, 2011, 5:10 am

Hi Suzanne, The Confidence-man, Melville sounds intriguing and I will follow the thread over at the salon. My TBR pile is groaning and I can't fit anything else in at the moment. I have to plan my reading a little because I have no access to an English bookshop here and have to rely on the internet for shopping and then there is the local French postal service. I usually have to wait a minimum of two weeks for a book to arrive..

161Poquette
Abr 3, 2011, 6:54 pm

Barry, I understand completely your dilemma, including the unavailability of really good local book stores. And there is simply not enough time to do all the reading I want to do either -- and there is so much here in the LT threads that is tempting, to say the least. I actually am reading The Confidence-Man on my Kindle, more about which on your thread.

By the way, do you know about The Online Books Page? This is a tremendous resource of online books. You can actually read The Confidence-Man there, if you have time. At least you can sample it.

162baswood
Abr 4, 2011, 4:29 am

Hi Suzanne, I didn't know about the Online books page. What an incredible resource. I'll see how I go reading the Confidence-Man there.

163Poquette
Abr 9, 2011, 2:24 am

Aspects of the Novel by E.M. Forster (1927)

Forster has produced an absolutely delicious little book of criticism. It actually originated as a series of lectures given at Trinity College, Cambridge, and the chatty tone of the spoken word has not been edited out. Consequently, we have before us a lively and almost intimate discussion of certain “aspects” of the novel that Forster has chosen to speak about.

A definition of the novel was foremost on the author’s mind. He was operating within certain constraints in his lecture series regarding the scope of his topic, and so he chose to quote French critic Abel Chevalley in setting up the working definition for his purposes. Thus, a novel is “a fiction in prose of a certain extent” ("une fiction en prose d’une certaine étendue”). To this he added that it should be not less than 50,000 words.

While it is ostensibly a work of literary criticism, the book provided Forster with an opportunity to hold forth on certain characteristics of fiction that interested him. And it should not be confused with the typical writer’s guide listing the elements an author should consider in constructing a novel – such as plot, character, point of view, description, dialogue, etc. Some of these are indeed contemplated here, but from a critical or reader’s vantage point rather than that of a writer.

The aspects of the novel that Forster chose to highlight were story, people (two chapters), plot, fantasy, prophesy, pattern and rhythm, in that order. Story, people and plot are easily anticipated in any extended treatment of the novel. But the remaining aspects – fantasy, prophesy, pattern and rhythm are not such obvious choices, particularly considering the year (1927) in which the lectures were delivered. And as he progressed through his chosen subjects, he could cite fewer and fewer novels that demonstrated those aspects. Nonetheless, his ruminations thereon were charming and thought-provoking.

In the interest of simplifying his task of covering the whole topic of English fiction – originating far and wide across the then-Empire and encompassing two hundred years and countless authors – Forster asked his audience

to visualize the English novelists as seated together in a room, a circular room, a sort of British Museum reading-room – all writing their novels simultaneously. They do not, as they sit there, think “I live under Queen Victoria, I under Anne, I carry on the tradition of Trollope, I am reacting against Aldous Huxley.” The fact that their pens are in their hands is far more vivid to them. They are half mesmerized, their sorrows and joys are pouring out through the ink, they are approximated by the act of creation . . . That is to be our vision of them – an imperfect vision, but it is suited to our powers, it will preserve us from a serious danger, the danger of pseudo-scholarship.
“Pseudo-scholarship” is a particular Forster bugaboo that pops up from time to time throughout. In this case, we as readers are freed from the vagaries of period considerations.

As to the aspects, summarizing what he has to say about each one is too daunting a task. Forster uses examples from great novels to illustrate his points. He quotes freely and at length and in the process, perhaps as an added fillip, engenders the desire to read or reread the subject works. His comments about particular works of Jane Austen, Charlotte and Emily Bronte, Dickens, Dostoevsky, George Eliot, Henry James, James Joyce, D.H. Lawrence, Melville, Proust, Sir Walter Scott, Thackeray, Tolstoy, Trollope, H.G. Wells and Virginia Woolf are golden and worth the price of admission.

Any reader or reviewer of fiction – whether literary, genre or whatever – can only be elevated and inspired by reading this book, which can be consumed in an afternoon. Be forewarned, however, that it demands to be reread. It is full of quotable quotes, wonderful insights and myriad ways to analyze that one might have overlooked or forgotten.

164baswood
Abr 9, 2011, 8:54 am

Suzanne, Aspects of the novel is one of those books that I have never got round to reading, which is strange as its one of the most famous books of literary criticism. Another excellent review and a book that I can safely put on my to buy list.

165rebeccanyc
Abr 9, 2011, 9:49 am

For me, also, Aspects of the Novel is a book I've always meant to read. Now, maybe I will . . . one of these days.

166Poquette
Abr 9, 2011, 3:21 pm

Barry and Rebecca - you won't be sorry. It is a treasure!

167Poquette
Abr 9, 2011, 3:23 pm

Just noticed that today is the anniversary of Charles Baudelaire's birth. In homage:

The Enemy

My youth was nothing but a storm, tenebrous, savage,
Traversed by brilliant suns that our hearts harden;
The thunder and the rain had made such ravage
That few of the fruits were left in my ruined garden.

Now that I have touched the autumn of Ideas,
One must use the spade before the whole earth consumes
Itself like the strangled sons that were Medea's,
Where the water digs deep holes as damp as tombs.

But who knows if the flowers I dream of and adore
Shall find in this soil, naked as any shore,
The mystic nourishment of the magician's art?

– O Sorrow! Time eats our life and mortifies himself,
And the obscure Enemy who gnaws our heart
From the blood we lose increases and fortifies himself!

– Charles Baudelaire

168baswood
Abr 10, 2011, 5:20 pm

Suzanne, Another hot review!

It was nice to be welcomed over at the salon, they seem to be functioning OK without EF?

169Poquette
Abr 10, 2011, 5:49 pm

Barry, got two PMs from Salon members telling me about the hot review! I'm astounded! And thrilled at the same time.

The Salonistas are a lively bunch -- very friendly and erudite. It's a challenge keeping up. Sorry that EF has left. He was quite a force but the Salon now has taken on a life of its own. And there is a vacuum to be filled over there to be sure.

170tomcatMurr
Abr 10, 2011, 8:41 pm

Great thread Poquette. Who is the translator of the Baudelaire?

171Poquette
Abr 10, 2011, 9:47 pm

Tom, Welcome to Bookaccino!

The Baudelaire is part of Flowers of Evil and was translated by Arthur Symons. I took it from a book I have called Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Verlaine: Selected Verse and Prose Poems, edited by Joseph M. Bernstein. Do you have a different translation? If so, how do they compare?

172dchaikin
Abr 10, 2011, 10:58 pm

What happened to the Freake?!! I need to visit le Salon, that is sad.

That is a terrific review up there (Aspects of a Novel) and thanks for posting that wonderful poem.

173tomcatMurr
Abr 11, 2011, 4:08 am

Poquette, ma cheri, you can see more translations here:

http://fleursdumal.org/

We are discussing Baudelaire on my thread here:

http://www.librarything.com/topic/106034

from post 267 on. You're welcome to drop in.
:)

174Poquette
Abr 16, 2011, 5:00 am

Hypnerotomachia Poliphili by Francisco Colonna, tr. by Joscelyn Godwin

Now that I have finally gotten around to reading this, it feels like I have come full circle. But let me back up and explain why.

Having been in love with books and reading since I was a toddler, I was inspired to become a librarian, and after graduating from university with a bachelor's in English, I went off to library school at Berkeley. Amidst such arid topics as cataloguing and library administration, I signed up for a course on the history of books and printing. Having arrived fresh from the hinterlands where I had barely heard of Gutenberg, much less illuminated manuscripts, this course was literally life-changing. We were allowed to peruse medieval manuscripts and examples of printed books ranging from the incunabula period through the modern era. When books were not available, the professor had individual leaves representing great milestones in printing for us to examine, or at the very least we were treated to slide shows that explored individual books in depth. The professor, who was a private fine press printer on the side, even brought a small Albion handpress to class and demonstrated exactly how books were initially printed, assembled and bound.

In this class we saw several examples of books published by Aldus Manutius, but by far the standout was a copy of the Hypnerotomachia Poliphili. The beauty of this book has stayed with me for all the intervening years. In fact, the world of rare books and manuscripts has never ceased to fascinate.

Why, you may ask, what is so beautiful about it? As William Dana Orcutt stated so well: "On every page Aldus expended his utmost ingenuity in the arrangement of type -- the use of capitals and small capitals and unusual type formations . . . the type balances the illustrations in such a way as to become part of them . . . In a volume published in 1499 they stand as an extraordinary exhibit of what an artistic ingenious printer can accomplish within the rigid limitations of metal type." And I might add, all the while attempting to emulate the beauty of the illuminated manuscripts which stood as the epitome of book production at the time. It provides a prime exemplar of the first principles of good book design – that the woodcut illustrations should correspond in weight with that of the type, thus producing a balanced page.

After library school, because of my new-found enthusiasm for books historically, I worked for a time at a well-known rare books shop in San Francisco where it gradually dawned on me that there were two kinds of booklovers. There are those like me and most of you who enjoy books first and foremost for the purpose of reading, and most of us have managed to accumulate large numbers of books over the years. If you are anything like me, you have a lot of books, but it is an accumulation more than it is a collection. At the rare books shop I learned all about the world of book collecting, i.e., collecting books as artifacts – not necessarily to be read. In fact, preferably not to be read because the more collectible books are handled, the higher the risk that value will be negatively affected. Rare book dealers – and collectors – are a unique lot. Many of them are scholars in their field, being experts in the history, value and fine points of collectible books as artifacts. But they don't read the books they sell or collect. They treasure them the way connoisseurs of great art treasure exemplary paintings. For a number of reasons I gravitated away from the world of rare books, and a tiny part of me still regrets that turn of events.

All of this is a long-winded way of explaining that back in my library school/rare books days, nobody was talking about the Hypnerotomachia as a book to be read, especially since it had never been translated into English and almost all the scholarship regarding the book was in Italian, French or German. It was treated as a work of art, a historical artifact, and that was that. In fact, prior to Joscelyn Godwin's masterful English translation, which appeared in 1999, exactly 500 years after the original publication, and then the subsequent publication of The Rule of Four, I dare say not one in 10,000 Americans would have ever heard of it.

Despite it's recent notoriety, and despite a skilled translation by Professor Godwin, it still is not a book that will appeal to most readers. In fact, without the benefit of having read some of the books reviewed on this thread, I doubt that even I would have stayed with it, notwithstanding my long history of knowing about it. To fully appreciate the extended erotic romance of Poliphilo and Polia, with its digressions on many subjects including especially architecture, gardens, triumphal processions, collections, music, and with its constant mythological and other pagan references, one needs more than a little background in the underpinnings of the Renaissance and ancient culture and literary conventions. Not that I'm suddenly such an expert, but I will say that having read Godwin's The Pagan Dream of the Renaissance and The High Medieval Dream Vision by Kathryn L. Lynch, I was much better equipped to grasp and appreciate some of the subtleties.

While it qualifies in spades as literature, it would in all likelihood appeal hardly at all to people who otherwise concentrate on so-called literary fiction. It has more in common with ancient epic literature and the Commedia or Paradise Lost even though it is not poetry. It seems to be emulating and mocking such works at the same time. Other nonepic interpretations are possible, including Neoplatonic, alchemical, Jungian and as philosophical dream vision (see Lynch). The modern reader can be forgiven for not wanting to dive right in.

Godwin stated at the outset that "The first principle of this translation is to honour every word of the original, however redundant the style may seem to modern ears. To have done otherwise would have only produced another abridgment. . . . But if one were really to convey the spirit and style of the original language, it would have been necessary to do as Colonna did: to invent English words based on the same Latin and Greek ones and to embed them in a syntax to match." In this propensity to create his own vocabulary, Colonna was a forerunner of Shakespeare and James Joyce.

Godwin gives an example of how he translated a sentence, thus:

"On this horrid and sharp-stoned shore, in this miserable region of the icy and foetid lake, stood fell Tisiphone, wild and cruel with her vipered locks and implacably angry.
and how it might have been rendered in keeping with the word-inventing flamboyant style of Colonna:

"In this horrid and cuspidinous littoral and most miserable site of the algent and fetorific lake stood saevious Tisiphone, efferal and cruel with her viperine capillament, her meschine and miserable soul, implacably furibund."
Godwin goes on to say that "While most readers will be relieved at the decision not to do so, something has been lost thereby. All the colourful patina, all the grotesque accretions have been stripped away from Colonna's language, leaving it comprehensible but bland."

My fascination with how the vestiges of ancient pagan culture managed to infiltrate a militantly Christian culture, to thrive for a time during the Renaissance before being driven back underground during the counter-Reformation, only to rise again amongst such groups as the Transcendentalists in America, is well fed here.

As Godwin wrote,

Whoever we are and whatever we believe, more of our life is lived in the imagination than most people like to admit. Our day-to-day existence is crammed with dreams, fantasies and long excursions into the past, in the form of stories we tell to others and to ourselves. Just like Poliphilo, we chew over past experience and try to make sense of it or imagine how it might have been. The books we read become part and parcel of that experience. Reading them is a parenthesis within our world, a story within our story, and a dream within our dream. For as the author proclaims, "all human things are but a dream."


175Poquette
Editado: Abr 16, 2011, 4:39 pm

A page from the original Hypnerotomachia which shows the balanced design, incorporating woodcut, decorative initial and elegant type design and arrangement:

http://mitpress.mit.edu/e-books/HP/hyp020.htm

176baswood
Editado: Abr 16, 2011, 6:36 pm

Suzanne, superb review of Hypnerotomachia. The example of how Godwin might have rendered the invented vocabulary is fascinating and one can see his point that something has been lost by the translation into readily understandable English. Unaccountably it made me think of this-

The silent stork of sadness scans Trelawny Lawn
The lion, the unicorn it's horn in the lap of Beth
Laments the dawn
Beguiled, the scribish jacket-man his cap a skull-of-rat
Is but a pawn.

Oh sky, your eyes embrace is to vicious for my wheat
The foaming Earthguard whinneys to his leaden feet
The bullfinch rumbles
The lavish lion aslanically scythes the hay
The unicorn bids you stay.

I also like the way you have introduced your review with a personal statement. For me the way I come to a book or why it is important to me is a valid part of expressing my feelings about some books.

Great stuff

177Poquette
Editado: Abr 16, 2011, 7:22 pm

Wow! Those lyrics have a very Lewis Carroll sound to them. Do you have a link to someone actually singing them?

Thanks, Barry, for your kind words, as usual. In this case, I couldn't write initially without the background because it explains why I read the book in the first place. I managed to strip all that out of the review I actually posted, but this all somehow needed to be said. But it is interesting how the book dovetails with my recent preoccupations. THAT I was not expecting.

178Poquette
Abr 16, 2011, 7:24 pm




The Rule of Four by Ian Caldwell and Dustin Thomason

Ulterior motives initially attracted me to The Rule of Four. Having seen a copy of the original Hypnerotomachia Poliphili while at graduate school way back in the day, it has remained in my mind as an archetype of fine printing, and since there were no English translations at hand, it carried a certain mystique about it. So a group of young Princeton roommates who were involved in various ways with unlocking the mysteries surrounding the authorship of this seminal work made for fascinating reading. The mystery is solved, although fancifully and ahistorically, after the usual murder and mayhem that one can expect from a modern thriller, especially one in the tradition of The Da Vinci Code. The Rule of Four does not appear to be a copycat, following as it does close on the heels of Dan Brown's best seller, but its publishers did not hesitate to capitalize on the generic similarities.

The adventures of Tom, Paul, Charlie and Gil in the environs of Princeton form the basis of a genuine page-turner. But be forewarned that it is heavy on the historical background of the Hypnerotomachia and some understanding of its origins and Renaissance history is helpful. In this regard, an excellent resource is to be found in Joscelyn Godwin's The Real Rule of Four, which also contains a map of the Princeton campus, photographs of the buildings featured in the plot and a complete set of footnotes to The Book of Four.

179Poquette
Abr 16, 2011, 8:11 pm

At the risk of overdoing the Hypnerotomachia thing, I have one more review. Please forgive the redundancies:



The Real Rule of Four by Joscelyn Godwin

The Real Rule of Four by Joscelyn Godwin provides an explanation of The Rule of Four by Ian Caldwell and Dustin Thomason, which attempts to provide an explanation of the Hypnerotomachia Poliphili by Francesco Colonna. So what we have here is a story within a story within a story, much like the Hypnerotomachia itself. Professor Godwin does the logical thing and begins his task by introducing "The Real Hypnerotomachia," thus:

The object that goes under this resounding name (pronounced "HIP-ne-Ro-to-MA-kia PO-li-FEE-li") is a book of 467 pages, a foot tall and broad to match, which was printed in the Serene Republic of Venice by the press of Aldus Manutius in the year of grace 1499. A few dozen copies are still scattered round the globe, most of them in the locked presses of libraries or behind the security systems of wealthy collectors. Quite a few probably lie in bank vaults, keeping company with silent Stradivarius violins, waiting to appreciate in value beyond the $320,00 that a fine copy of the book currently commands at auction.

The Professor's suggested pronunciation is akin to Italian, but I believe the book's title is Latinesque at least although based on Greek antecedents, and some people, myself included, prefer to pronounce it "HIP-ne-RO-to-ma-KI-a po-LI-fi-li (long "i" at the end). Once one can actually pronounce it with fluidity, one is put immediately in a better frame of mind to read about it.

For readers of The Rule of Four who are unversed in Renaissance history and Classical lore, Professor Godwin's little handbook is invaluable, as it not only presents a thorough discussion of the inner workings of the Hypnerotomachia, but it provides a map of Princeton University where the main action of The Rule of Four takes place, photographs of the buildings important to the plot, and perhaps best of all, a complete set of footnotes to the novel, providing a marvelous supplement to the Caldwell-Thomason book.

180theaelizabet
Editado: Abr 16, 2011, 8:20 pm

Suzanne, great review of Hypnerotomachia Poliphili! I read the Rule of Four, found no interest at all in the antics of the college students, but was fascinated by the description of the Hypnerotomachia Poliphili. I did some research, but fell short of actually reading it! The Real Rule of Four sound like it's worth a look.

After reading your mention of the Transcendentalists in your review, I checked your library. You have some Margaret Fuller bios that I haven't heard of. Have you had a chance to read Charles Capper's 2 vol. bio on her? It's excellent.

181baswood
Abr 16, 2011, 8:46 pm

Suzanne, link to Trelawny Lawn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhYfZtz6Vic

182tomcatMurr
Abr 16, 2011, 11:33 pm

Once one can actually pronounce it with fluidity, one is put immediately in a better frame of mind to read about it.

hahaha!
fascinating stuff. I love the link to the illustration.

183Poquette
Abr 17, 2011, 3:40 am

>180 theaelizabet: Thea, I haven't read the Capper bio. Will look into it. Thanks!

>181 baswood: Barry, thanks much for the link. I love the lyrics -- very evocative.

>182 tomcatMurr: Tom, how to pronounce it seems to be a bugabear for some. Just trying to help! ;-)

184Poquette
Abr 19, 2011, 2:25 am

Finally finished reading and reviewing the books announced in #39 above. Time to present a new list. Considering all the interruptions it may be a bad idea to do this, but here is what I am reading now :

The Confidence-Man by Herman Melville - as part of the group read over in Le Salon

2666 by Robert Bolano -- another Salon group read

The Esoteric Origins of the American Renaissance
by Arthur Versluis -- background for The confidence-Man

The Art of Memory by Frances Yates -- following on the heels of Yates' excellent The Occult Philosophy in the Elizabethan Age and recommended by Zenomax

185Poquette
Abr 19, 2011, 2:44 am

Four of the books I've read since beginning this thread contain the word "dream" in the title.

"Dream" occurs 57 times in this thread. Can a dream vision be far behind?

Here's something amazing that appears as sort of a frontispiece or perhaps a title page to the Hypnerotomachia that I edited out of my review:

THE HYPNEROTOMACHIA OF POLIPHILO, IN WHICH IT IS SHOWN THAT ALL HUMAN THINGS ARE BUT A DREAM, AND MANY OTHER THINGS WORTHY OF KNOWLEDGE AND MEMORY.
Perhaps you will recall that Kathryn Lynch in her High Medieval Dream Vision pointed out that medieval psychology posited three mental faculties: intellect, imagination and memory. If a dream is identified with imagination as it surely is among the dream vision poets, if knowledge is identified with intellect, and memory is as named, here we have in this Renaissance book an exemplar of the outpourings of a high medieval/Renaissance mind.

186TineOliver
Abr 19, 2011, 3:28 am

184: I've just finished reading 2666 - I'll be interested to see your thoughts.

187baswood
Abr 19, 2011, 4:23 am

Suzanne, if you think long and hard enough about a dream vision you might very well have one. You will need to post it on your thread.

188Poquette
Abr 20, 2011, 3:24 am

Tine - Thanks for stopping by. I'm just now going into training for 2666. It promises to be a fascinating ride. Will indeed post my reactions.

189Poquette
Abr 20, 2011, 3:27 am

Barry . . . is that you . . . ? I'm fading into the mists . . . the images are swirling . . . Oh, the light, the beautiful light . . . and look at all those books . . . . . .

190dchaikin
Abr 20, 2011, 9:06 am

Poquette - are you still with us? (Feeling a bit left out in mundane imagination down here...). Spectacular post on the HP up there - I would give five stars to your commentary.

191Poquette
Abr 20, 2011, 1:47 pm

Yup -- I'm still here and fully recovered! Thanks much re the post. HP is going to stay with me for a while. I keep dipping in and seeing other books about it. Oh, dear . . . there goes the budget. Again!

192Poquette
Editado: Abr 23, 2011, 3:16 pm

Yesterday I went on a 99-cent buying spree at the Kindle Store. Most of my extravagance was inspired by a book I'm currently reading called The Esoteric Origins of the American Renaissance by Arthur Versluis.

Who was it who said that everything is connected to everything else? Esoteric Origins is even more connected than I deserve to recent reading. The primary purpose for selecting this book was to gain insight into Melville's The Confidence-Man, which I am also reading as part of a group read over on Le Salon Litteraire. The word "esoteric" in the title caused me to raise my eyebrows a bit, since that is a loaded word in the context of recent reading. And indeed, it seems to bring into the mid 19th century certain strains addressed by Yates' Occult Philosophy in the Elizabethan Age, and Godwin's The Pagan Dream of the Renaissance and The Golden Thread.

Who knew that the Transcendentalists – including Emerson, Alcott, Margaret Fuller, Whitman and Melville – were at base Hermeticists, Gnostics, theosophists, etc.? A full review will be forthcoming when I finish the book.

Now, as to my buying spree which, as I said, was inspired by the Versluis book:

Novalis Including Hymns to the Night ($2.99) – (Okay, so I splurged on this.) Novalis apparently was a huge influence on Emerson. This contains Carlyle's book-length essay on Novalis, which apparently Emerson digested thoroughly in the process of writing Nature.
Classic German Literature: Jean Paul, Humboldt, Schegel, Novalis, Holderlin, Tieck, Kleist in English translation (.99) – these are all important "Romantic" writers, some of whom are mentioned in Versluis.
The 21st Century Emerson Collection: The Collected Works of Ralph Waldo Emerson 199 poems 186 essays lectures letters and other prose. (.99) – this is a veritable treasure trove -- purportedly 4,000+ pages of Emerson's writings. I couldn't resist.

The latter collection of Emerson distracted me from my appointed reading. Late in Emerson's career, he gave a lecture series entitled "Society & Solitude," chapter 8 of which caught my attention, called simply "Books." This essay gives a rundown on what Emerson thought should be contained in the educated "man's" library. It runs the gamut from the ancient classics pretty much up to the 18th century. Emerson was pretty tentative about recommending writings that were too recent. But I was captivated enough to read the whole thing. Here are a couple of amusing quotes therefrom:

Many men are as tender and irritable as lovers in reference to their predilections. Indeed, a man's library is a sort of harem, and I observe that tender readers have a great pudency in showing their books to a stranger.
I can relate to that, even though I'm not a man! And then later:

The child asks you for a story, and is thankful for the poorest. It is not poor to him, but radiant with meaning. The man asks for a novel, that is, asks leave for a few hours to be a poet, and to paint things as they ought to be. The youth asks for a poem. The very dunces wish to go to the theatre. What private heavens can we not open by yielding to all the suggestions of rich music! We must have idolatries, mythologies, some swing and verge for the creative power lying coiled and cramped here, driving ardent natures to insanity and crime if it do not find vent. Without the great arts which speak to the sense of beauty, a man seems to me a poor, naked, shivering creature. These are his becoming draperies, which warm and adorn him.
"Books" and another essay on "Milton" pretty much killed the evening – but I'm not complaining.

193theaelizabet
Editado: Abr 23, 2011, 3:41 pm

You're making Esoteric Origins sound very tempting! I'm going to look for your finds for my Nook. I've also been downloading some wonderful .99 and free books from that era. I'll take a look and see if I there's anything to recommend to you. There are some interesting period books on Fuller, for example.

194baswood
Abr 23, 2011, 5:53 pm

Hi Suzanne,
The joys of owning a kindle eh - instant gratification.

The Emerson sounds fascinating. I have got his collected poems sitting on my shelf but must confess to never having read any. I must also plead ignorance to the term American Renaissance. This made me raise my eyebrows and click on wiki.

Many happy hours of reading and I'm looking forward to your reviews.

195arubabookwoman
Abr 28, 2011, 12:05 pm

Harking back to 174 and your review of Hypnerotomachia, I know that realistically I'm not going to read it, but if I did, I think I'd prefer the "flamboyant" version.

196Poquette
Abr 29, 2011, 3:28 pm

Gosh, am I bleary-eyed today. I stayed up all night and watched The Wedding. Anglophile that I am, it just couldn't be helped. In honor of the event, one of my favorite British hymns:

Jerusalem

And did those feet in ancient time.
Walk upon England's mountains green:
And was the holy Lamb of God,
On England's pleasant pastures seen!

And did the Countenance Divine,
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here,
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my Bow of burning gold;
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!

I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand:
Till we have built Jerusalem,
In England's green & pleasant Land.

– William Blake

197Poquette
Maio 2, 2011, 2:59 am



The Esoteric Origins of the American Renaissance by Arthur Versluis

I read this book as background for Melville's The Confidence-Man: His Masquerade, but it seems to be covering familiar territory to books I've read recently in a slightly different context. Altogether, it is a brilliant book about the Transcendentalists and their influences.

Esotericism is a quasi religious phenomenon that has its origins in the mists of time, but which showed many manifestations through the course of European history and which was carried into the New World by the pilgrims when they landed at Plymouth, and by other adherents who arrived among the subsequent waves of immigrants to the American colonies. Perhaps the most prominent evidence throughout the colonial period of esoteric interests can be seen in the fact that The Farmer's Almanac was among the earliest and most popular books printed in the colonies and it continues in print to this day. The almanac contained important astrological information which related to the calendar governing plantings and harvestings and everything in between, including folk remedies and herbal lore. The witch hunts in new England reflected one of many backlashes against practitioners of esoterica or "magic" that fell out of favor with the arbitors of social and religious conduct. It is a cycle that repeats itself with some regularity in the history of the West.

The so-called American Renaissance of the title refers to that literary flowering that occurred in New England towards the middle of the 19th century, and is reflected in the writings of such luminaries as Poe, Hawthorne, Bronson Alcott, Emerson, Melville, Whitman, Margaret Fuller and Emily Dickenson.

While many immigrants came to the New World in search of religious freedom, many others came with the hope of being able to live their lives in accordance with the esoteric interests that governed their lives. Such interests included alchemy, Hermeticism, Rosicrucianism, Gnosticism and Christian theosophy. In this book we learn that in one way or another, each of the writers mentioned above were influenced by one or more of these currents: "Poets, dramatists, novelists, essayists -- all have gone to esoteric currents for inspiration, perhaps because there is such a natural correspondence between esoteric metaphors and literary metaphors, between esoteric ways of 'reading the world,' and literary ways of seeing."

Perhaps because religion and even mysticism have fallen into disrepute among Western intellectuals for whom spiritual pursuits are labeled with such epithets as "superstition" and worse, almost the whole body of literary criticism regarding mid-19th century American writers has completely ignored the esoteric influences on them. In some cases, understanding these strains in the intellectual and spiritual life of the times is essential to fully understanding these writers.

In the 19th century, the conflict between religion and science was at the forefront of philosophical discourse, and many saw in esoteric practices a sort of middle way by which the practice or spiritual pursuit of alchemy or herbalism, for example, seemed to offer both spiritual and material sustenance. Many people, including such writers as Goethe, were disillusioned with the way formal religion was practiced and found more satisfaction in mystical pursuits.

Esotericism presented both spiritual and practical manifestations as, for example, alchemy was both a philosophical/mystical guide to living and a laboratory practice. Some adherents followed both the spiritual and practical, or one or the other. Practices included not only alchemy, but also astrology, herbalism, cartomancy, geomancy, necromancy and other forms of divination.

Arthur Versluis spends a couple of lengthy chapters discussing all this and fleshing it out as background for the chapters that follow which are devoted to the individual writers mentioned above. He begins by describing the European currents of esoteric thought that were in turn influencing American trends. He elaborates on the then current state of affairs with regard to alchemy, theosophy, secret societies (Rosicrucian and Freemason) and Swedenborg, naming and describing the books that people like Emerson and Alcott were reading. He then presents further background on the esoteric influences on colonial America, which included astromancy and folk magic, alchemy, theosophy, Rosicrucianism and Freemasonry, all of which played a surprisingly large role in defining the intellectual and spiritual underpinnings of American life. The author introduces the people and places and books that were prominent in these various pursuits. A final introductory chapter sets the table for the intellectual milieu of the Transcendental movement and the so-called American Renaissance. Interestingly, quite a few of the American experimental communities that popped up in New England, such as the Oneida community, New Harmony and Brook Farm, had at their foundation not merely a utopian ideal for living but also an esoteric philosophy such as theosophy or Swedenborgianism, among others.

Needless to say, the esoteric influences on the individual writers treated herein were many and varied. Perhaps a sentence or two about some of them will provide an indication of how each absorbed, internalized and reprocessed this in his or her literary output. As Versluis points out,

". . . each of our authors took from different esoteric traditions -- Alcott and Emerson from Hermeticism, Christian Theosophy and Neoplatonism; Fuller from alchemy and Rosicrucianism; Hawthorne from alchemy; Melville and Poe from Gnosticism. In this indebtedness, these authors followed very much in the tradition of the earlier European Renaissance, which was also largely inspired by the esoteric interests of Ficino, Pico della Mirandola, and others."

Poe is perhaps the most cynical of the authors Versluis highlights. He makes fun of the philosopher's stone, mesmerism, and Swedenborgianism in his short stories, using these for effect. Cited as examples are "Von Kempelen and His Discovery," "The Domain of Arnheim" and "The Cask of Amontillado." "In his stories we find a fascination with death and decay, and a morbid attraction to psychic extremes, particularly those associated with insanity and murder. It is true that Poe draws on esoteric themes, but it is oftentimes and perhaps almost always to undermine their meanings by supplanting transcendence or even esoteric meanings with mere terror."

Hawthorne is another negative example of "simultaneous attraction to and repulsion from esoteric themes." "The House of Seven Gables does indeed draw on an alchemical symbolism, but toward a very ambivalent end." The Scarlet Letter could be read "as a lesson in staying away from alchemical pursuits, and even from herbalism." In The Blithedale Romance which is loosely based on Hawthorne's experience at Brook Farm, its narrator Miles Coverdale, referring to mesmerism and spiritualism, "finds these phenomena not only disturbing but a kind of degradition." Versluis sees in Hawthorne's fiction "a kind of literalized esotericism. Alchemy is never the spiritual practice that we find described in alchemical texts; instead . . . it is always the illigitimate and vain search for earthly immortality, or the pursuits of a sinister figure like Chillingworth in The Scarlet Letter. It would seem that Hawthorne wanted to keep at arm's length these traditions for it is evident that he regarded them with "a kind of fascinated horror . . . At the same time, there is no doubt that these topics, precisely because they are extreme, bring a kind of fascinating power into Hawthorne's fictional worlds."

"Melville's closest self-identification was probably with Gnosticism," according to Versluis, although he does point out "Melville's often sardonic attitude toward various forms of esotericism." This can be seen especially in his last novel, The Confidence-Man, which "seems to be about how people impute to others -- in particular the confidence man -- what they want to see." That Melville's religious views differed very much from those of most mid-nineteenth-century Americans who held to a familiar conventional Christianity . . . is abundantly clear not only in The Confidence-Man, but also in the rest of his writings." Melville's desire to disguise his religious views may explain the multi-layered ambiguities that characterize this novel.

Emerson, who was in the 19th century the most influential of the Transcendentalists, is a bit of an enigma today because he kept the sources of his own inspiration fairly well hidden from view. However, much of his work "reflects his reading of Hermetic, theosophic and Swedenborgian esoteric texts." In recent years it has become clear that his reading of the works of Jacob Boehme, the German mystic, was at the foundation of his Transcendentalism. In Nature, he "tells us that all of Nature exists like a great book, in order to be read -- and that all of Nature is emblematic, a language of the spirit." Nature reflects his deep undertanding of not only Boehme, but Goethe, Novalis and Carlyle, who were all to some extent of like mind.

Margaret Fuller's esotericism is quite evident in much of her writing, and awareness of it may alter one's view of her. She was deeply interested in astrology, gemology and Rosicrucianism and may have been a member of a Rosicrucian order. Versluis says that "for her the supernatural was simply part of a continuum, that for her the esoteric was not excluded from the rest of life, but an intrinsic part of it. Indeed one wonders whether in the end it is esotericism, so long excluded from consideration of her work, that is at its center, and whether without this key, one really understands Fuller's life and work at all."

Whitman, the great egotist, who was at the center of a new religion he was trying to create, and Dickenson, the great mystic poet, I shall leave to you to ferret out among Versluis's pages.

Readers who are interested in the authors of the mid 19th century or the esoteric subjects described in that context will find this book of deep interest. It is well written, well footnoted and very accessible.

198baswood
Maio 2, 2011, 4:08 am

Hi Suzanne, Fascinating review and a book I will definitely read when I start reading 19th century American writers. There would seem to be essential background for a deeper understanding of some of these texts.

You say in your review

in some cases understanding these strains in the intellectual and spiritual life of the times is essential to fully understanding these writers

How true this is for almost any period of writing. The more you know the better understanding you will have and the more enjoyment you will get from a text. Even the negative examples you highlight are very worthy of consideration because if you did not have the background these would be lost to you as a reader.

All of this is starting to make me think I might be missing much with the Bolano group read over at the salon.

199baswood
Maio 2, 2011, 4:14 am

I have been hiding away from the royal wedding - just not my scene. It is difficult to escape the enthusiasm (hysteria perhaps) even here, as I saw people putting up Union Jack bunting in the main street of Marciac.

200dchaikin
Maio 2, 2011, 9:08 am

Suzanna - I lack the adjectives, but you certainly put a lot into this review and we readers are rewarded. Fascinating stuff on many levels, and a terrific review that brings a great deal out of the book. This review highlights why I spend so much time on LT, there is so much to learn here. (Now I need to go look up some of these terms...Rosicruscianism ?).

201PimPhilipse
Maio 2, 2011, 9:32 am

I remember reading Poe as a teenager and wondering why the Transcendentalists were getting such a bad rap, esp. in "Never Bet the Devil your Head".
So thank you for your review, I have ordered the book and am looking forward to it.

202zenomax
Maio 2, 2011, 2:06 pm

Suzanne, great summary of yet another interesting book.

203Poquette
Maio 2, 2011, 7:53 pm

Barry - your point about having sufficient background information on an author is worth highlighting. And in the context of Bolano's 2666, I agree that it is especially apt. I must confess that I haven't even started 2666 yet because I've been deluged with work and haven't actually read much of anything. I actually finished reading the Versluis a week ago and was only able to do my review yesterday. But the point is, my fundamentals on Latin American literature are sketchy at best. I can only claim to have read a few books in that area and probably along with you am thinking some background would help. I read the series of articles about Bolano's reading which were fascinating. Do you have a sense of what might be a good quick catch-up source?

Also re the wedding, I understand your feelings. For me it wasn't so much about getting caught up in the frenzy, but I love the majesty of state occasions in Britain, which they do so well. It was a particularly beautiful service, and aside from the hoopla, I'm glad I saw it. When I have stayed in London, I've been right down there by the Horse Guards, just around the corner from the cenotaph and Downing Street and in walking distance from Westminster Abbey. So I know that part of London well between Buckingham Palace and the Abbey. It was for me, as a non-Brit, a treat to watch.

204Poquette
Editado: Maio 2, 2011, 10:53 pm

> 200 - I just found out your name is Dan. Thanks again for continuing to read my reviews. If you like the particular authors discussed, this is an incredibly enlightening book. Despite it's length, my review merely scratches the surface!

> 201 - Welcome, Pim, to my little "Bookaccino"! Glad you liked the review and do let me know what you think after you've read the Versluis book. I'll be interested in your perspective.

> 202 - Zeno, this book is just an American twist on the old theme I've been following. I am now nominating Godwin's The Pagan Dream of the Renaissance and The Golden Thread as the books of the year for me. Those books have informed so much of my subsequent reading. It's amazing.

205janemarieprice
Maio 2, 2011, 8:57 pm

Seriously catching up:

142 - I quite enjoyed Frankenstein when I read it many years ago but would be curious to revisit it.

163 - Aspects of Novel went on the wishlist.

174 - I am very intrigued by the Hypnerotomachia Poliphili.

Nice reviews as always.

206Poquette
Maio 3, 2011, 3:21 am

Thanks, Jane!

207Poquette
Maio 3, 2011, 3:31 am

Sir Thomas Browne and his 'Religio Medici' by Alexander Whyte.

Sir Thomas Browne's name kept popping up as I was reading about the various Transcendentalist authors featured in The Esoteric Origins of the American Renaissance. He was a doctor, and Religio Medici means "Religion of a Doctor." So this is pretty much a book about Browne's religious views, which were quite expansive, considering the times. He lived and wrote during the reign of Charles II. This is a short little book which was available free on Kindle, so the price was right. I picked it up intending to merely glance through it out of curiousity and ended up reading the whole thing. The book concludes with a section of quotations from Browne organized by topic.

208bonniebooks
Maio 3, 2011, 7:01 am

Your review of The Esoteric Origins of the American Renaissance reminds me of how we learn the meanings of words mostly through reading in context, rather than from dictionaries, and that our understandings of words are increasingly layered based on our particular interactions with those words. It's not the first time that I've realized that I didn't know the full meaning of a word, but still I was surprised how limited my understanding of "esoteric" was.

209Poquette
Maio 3, 2011, 3:29 pm

Bonnie, your comment about our perception of words reminds me that I was having lunch a week ago with two women who both are avid readers, belong to book groups, and all that. At some point we were talking about what we were currently reading. They were both reading fiction, and when I told them I was deep into The Esoteric Origins of the American Renaissance, first of all their eyes glazed over, but after they recovered (nicely, I might add) one asked what could be esoteric about the origins of the American Renaissance -- and by the way, what was the American Renaissance? It soon became clear that what the book is dealing with was far removed from her understanding of the word "esoteric."

So you have highlighted a phenomenon that arises frequently. I try to read with a dictionary although if one is not at hand, sometimes I merely circle a word that I have a question about to look up later -- if I remember. But our language is so richly endowed with words from every imaginable source, that no matter how precisely a writer writes, if the reader doesn't know the meaning of the words he uses, some of his transmission may be lost -- to that reader at least. You have just reminded us of how valuable a habit it is to -- as my grandmother used to say -- "Look it up!"

210Mr.Durick
Maio 3, 2011, 6:01 pm

The Esoteric Origins of the American Renaissance is an expensive item, and, ten years old, it is not yet available in paperback. It may never be, but I have put it on my waiting-for-the-paperback wishlist.

Thanks for your review.

Robert

211baswood
Maio 3, 2011, 6:52 pm

#203 Suzanne, A link to various reviews summaries etc for 2666. The complete review link is a good one and many of the other reviews provide brief background information - http://www.bolanobolano.com/2666-resources/

212Poquette
Maio 3, 2011, 7:22 pm

>210 Mr.Durick: - Robert, yes, I have heard that The Esoteric Origins is expensive because it's out of print and probably few copies were printed to begin with. I actually stumbled on it at a website called Questia.com, where I have been finding fascinating and sometimes obscure books and articles for years. Alas, questia requires a membership, but I feel I have gotten my money's worth. They may have a variety of membership options, so it might be worth checking out.

>211 baswood: - Barry, thanks much for that link. I'll definitely follow up.

213Poquette
Maio 8, 2011, 3:41 pm

Making a note here that Lawrence Durrell really must float to the top of my TBR in the near future. Having read The Alexandria Quartet while in college – so many decades ago that it might as well have happened to another person – I'm due for a reread. Also of note are his The Revolt of Aphrodite (consisting of Tunc and Nunquam), and The Avignon Quintet (Consisting of Monsieur: or, The Prince of Darkness; Livia: or, Buried Alive; Constance: or, Solitary Practices; Sebastian: or, Ruling Passions; and Quinx: or, The Ripper's Tale). Let's throw in Prospero's Cell just for the heck of it.

The funny thing is that I was moved to read The Alexandria Quartet because when I was eighteen, a boy who lived across the street had recommended Gerald Durrell's My Family and Other Animals, which remains one of my favorite childhood reads – and yes, I was still a child when I was eighteen! I figured Lawrence must surely be as charming as Gerald, but I was sorely disappointed on that score at that time. But I do have sort of a haunting memory of the Quartet and it's multiple points of view and the haunting backdrop of Alexandria itself.

Just now I was reading an interesting article about John Fowles – another candidate for moving up in the TBR, incidentally – which piqued my interest, quoted passim:

Barth developed this idea further in another essay, "The Literature of Replenishment: Postmodernist Fiction," in which he described postmodernism as the new literary form arising out of, not one, but rather two "exhausted" forms: classic realism and modernism. Accordingly, he described postmodernist literature as being characterized by a double, contradictory impulse to simultaneously absorb and transcend the two antagonistic literary forms preceding it.

For Barth, therefore, while modernist literature had evolved out of the "exhaustion" of the realist aesthetics, postmodernist literature would stand in what we can describe as a parodic relationship to both preceding literary movements: classic realism and modernism.

* * * * *

In his 1967 article Barth singled out Samuel Beckett and Jorge Luis Borges as the only two writers who had seriously tried to transcend modernism, going beyond the writing innovations of Joyce and Kafka. By contrast, in "The Literature of Replenishment," he mentions a long list of "postmodernist" writers, most of them American and continental European,(3) adding to them just one British novelist, John Fowles.

John Barth's selection of Beckett and Borges - two writers for whom Fowles has expressed great admiration - as the necessary links between modernism and postmodernism is significant in that their conceptions of self and world may be described as diametrically opposed though complementary extreme developments of the modernist conception, which, I contend, Fowles would try to absorb and transcend in his own fiction.

* * * * *

In "Notes on Writing a Novel" Fowles quotes and comments on some of the memoranda he had written while he was writing The French Lieutenant's Woman. Midway through the essay he comments that "Alain Robbe-Grillet's polemical essay Pour un nouveau roman is indispensable reading for the profession even where it produces no more than total disagreement" (89). As he explains, one of Robbe-Grillet's answers to his "key question: Why bother to write in a form whose great masters cannot be surpassed?" (89-90), is misleading in that "it reduces the purpose of the novel to the discovery of new forms: whereas its other purposes - to entertain, to satirize, to describe new sensibilities, to record life, to improve life, and so on - are clearly just as viable and important" (91). Expressing his preoccupation with renewing the novel without sacrificing intelligibility and the old humanist values of classic realism, Fowles shows here the characteristic hesitation between the modernist "consolation of form" and the "longing for the return to the traditional relish in story telling" that Hutcheon - as well as Barth and Lodge - considers to be the basic trait of contemporary fiction. Fowles's way out of this intellectual impasse strikingly recalls John Barth's parodic mechanism of absorption and rejection:

To what extent am I being a coward by writing inside the old tradition? To what extent am I being panicked into avant-gardism? . . . There are apparent parallels in other arts: Stravinsky's eighteenth-century rehandlings, Picasso's and Francis Bacon's use of Velasquez. But in this context words are not nearly so tractable as musical notes or brushstrokes. One can parody a rococo musical ornament, a baroque face. Very early on I tried, in a test chapter, to put modern dialogue into Victorian mouths. But the effect was absurd. (90)

* * * * *

My contention is that the Borgesean problematic recuperation of the mythical component of writing as a way to transcend the modernist "inward turn" constitutes the most important recurrent element in the fiction of John Fowles, as well as in that of Lawrence Durrell, the great expatriate British writer whose Alexandria Quartet has been described as "The Missing Link to Postmodernism" (Vipond 54-68). Lawrence Durrell is indeed another name John Barth might have mentioned together with Beckett and Borges - a well as with Cortazar, Queneau, Butor, etc. - as examples of fully innovative and creative writers linking modernism to postmoderism.

* * * * *

The archetypal quest pattern is more overtly presented in Fowles's second published but first-written novel, The Magus (1965), a work of great complexity, which Fowles kept rewriting for over ten years(14) and from which we can say all the other novels and short stories derive in one way or another.
– Susana Onega, "Self, World and Art in the Fiction of John Fowles," Twentieth Century Literature 42: 1 (1996), p. 29+

214Poquette
Maio 8, 2011, 3:44 pm

In a footnote to the above article:

Fowles and Durrell initiate a specific trend in British writing that has become the most productive trend in the 1980s with the publication of such historiographic metafictions as Lawrence Durrell's Avignon Quintet (1974-85), Peter Ackroyd's Hawksmoor (1985) and First Light (1989), Charles Palliser's The Quincunx (1989), and Jeanette Winterson's The Passion (1987). These novels are equally chaotic and self-conscious at first sight but invariably hide perfectly devised mythical patterns that unify the novels at fabula, story and text levels. The quincunx, and its cabalistic counterpart, the numerus aureus, appears in Durrell's The Avignon Quintet (or Avignon Quincunx) and in Palliser's The Quincunx. In Peter Ackroyd's Hawksmoor (1985) it takes the (aberrant) form of a gnostic septilateral figure. In First Light we find an elliptical circle of white stones enclosing a prehistoric tumulus that recalls the New Physicists' concept of the parabolic curve on whose vertex opposites are integrated, and in The Passion the Moebius ribbon-like double loop formed by the major arcana of the Tarot. These figures are all mandalic figurations of the totality, expressing the transformation of man into Anthropos and so, suggesting the mythical reunification of man and cosmos, of self and world. However, in line with the contradictory nature of the postmodernist world view, the possibility of mythical transcendence is simultaneously undermined by the metafictional element that highlights the intrinsic constructedness of the world created and reveals the hero as a fictional author/character struggling for autonomy and freedom, thus forcing the reader to realize that the transcendence the novels offer has validity only within the cardboard limits of the literary texts themselves. – Onega, op. cit.
A goldmine for future reading!

215rebeccanyc
Maio 8, 2011, 5:00 pm

#213, Like you, I read The Alexandria Quartet many decades ago (just after college) and have been meaning to reread it at some point. Maybe over the summer. And My Family and Other Animals and Gerald Durrell's other books were favorites of mine too as a child.

216baswood
Maio 8, 2011, 7:02 pm

Hi Suzanne, #213 interesting post on postmodernism and Lawrence Durrell as the missing link.

I wonder how many people stumbled onto Lawrence Durrell after reading Gerald's My family and other animals I certainly did and ended up blinking in a very different light. Lynn is reading the Alexandra quartet at the moment and I am so envious. The book is lying around in the sitting room and I have to physically stop myself from picking it up and plunging into it. Its one of my all time favourites. Still I have my compensations as I am about halfway through Collected Poems 1931-1974.

I had to turn the music off to concentrate on your footnote #214 and I don't agree with the last sentence.

217Poquette
Editado: Maio 8, 2011, 9:21 pm

Barry, I was obviously too young and perhaps not literarily well-schooled enough to fully appreciate The Alexandria Quartet the first time around. I am eager to try it again.

I agree with your disagreement with especially the last clause of the last sentence. And I applaud your ability to sort out what it actually means. That is the most convoluted piece of writing I've seen in a long time – a real tribute to academese. Much of the article is like that, too, but I was quite intrigued by some of the notions it explored and wanted to capture some of that in a place where I would find it again easily – thus the post. I'll be reading it again to make sure I understood it!

218Poquette
Maio 9, 2011, 1:51 am

Hi Rebecca, further to Barry's suggestion, I suspect that Gerald has led to Lawrence more than the other way around. At any rate, while Gerald was writing primarily for money, he was no slouch of a writer. I just checked a list of his oeuvre, and am astonished at the range and quantity. Of course, he and Lawrence really cannot fairly be compared, but they both have established themselves firmly in one or another pantheon.

219Poquette
Maio 11, 2011, 4:45 am

Just finished in the wee small hours Jonathan Culler's Literary Theory: A Very Short Introduction, one of the Oxford series of "very short introductions." Will say more about this eventually, but was supposed to be reading something else and got sidetracked. Again!

220tomcatMurr
Maio 15, 2011, 10:09 pm

>214 Poquette: Interesting. Another writer I would add to the list of Brits influenced by Durrell to write 'historiographical metafictions' would be Lawrence Norfolk, especially, Lemprieré's Dictionary (dammit no touchstone).

221Poquette
Maio 15, 2011, 10:24 pm

Those blasted touchstones!

222Mr.Durick
Maio 15, 2011, 11:52 pm

Lempriere's Dictionary; it seems to be working for me. I wonder whether your acute accent threw it off.

Robert

223Poquette
Maio 16, 2011, 5:03 am

Tom, I do apologize.

And Robert, thanks for the touchstone, at the end of which we learn that 723 members own the book, not merely one as I had suspected.

The reviews sound interesting enough that I'm going to spring for this one.

Thanks!

224tomcatMurr
Maio 16, 2011, 6:10 am

oh gosh, I'm sorry to add yet another book to your pile lol. I think it's worth checking out though, if you like that kind of thing, (which I do.)

my keyboard seems to making all apostrophes and quote marks into accents on the previous letter. Me diacritics is all cocked up!

225Poquette
Editado: Maio 16, 2011, 7:31 pm


2666 by Roberto Bolano

2666 presents a mostly unsatisfactory reading experience. It begins well enough by introducing in the minutest detail four young professors whose academic careers revolve and rotate around one Benno von Archimboldi, a reclusive but prolific modern German novelist. After some initial stylistic flourishes, it settles into a humdrum reportage of what the reader might justifiably believe are promising main characters. They are indeed the protagonists of part one, but then they disappear.

The novel, with an ingenious structure one only appreciates at the very end, has five parts – extended overlong chapters really – which relate to each other in various oblique ways. By the end, the how and why of various unanswered questions suddenly dawn on the reader if he has been paying attention to names and other details.

Despite the clever ending, the book is unsatisfactory in a number of ways. First, as a certain Austrian emperor allegedly once said of Mozart's music, "It has too many notes," so 2666 has too many words. One keeps asking oneself, "Why am I reading this?" "Where is this going?" And, as someone eloquently asked, "So what?"

Touted as a modern epic, it falls short in that one expects action in an epic, whereas here we have page after page droning on and on, wandering aimlessly in search of a conclusion. Happily that conclusion is eventually reached, but at what cost? After being hit over the head with an endless catalog of murders in the Sonoran Desert of Mexico – two or three summaries was too much, frankly – we do get a full accounting of the mysterious Archimboldi. And that is worth something.

226baswood
Maio 17, 2011, 6:44 pm

Hi Suzanne, You seemed to have fallen out of love with 2666 the further you got into it. It seems that your reading turned into a bit of a marathon but you finally staggered over the finishing line not really knowing why you kept going.

I do think that it's a book that will divide opinion and I am looking forward to a more lively discussion over at the salon as more people finish.

227baswood
Maio 17, 2011, 7:02 pm

Hmm ...... I see you are already involved in that lively discussion.

Congrats on making the hot reviews.

228Poquette
Maio 17, 2011, 7:26 pm

Yes, Barry, I did fall out of love with 2666. Soon after my missive to you, in fact. But I was quite taken with it at the beginning.

229TineOliver
Maio 18, 2011, 2:44 am

225: Interesting review! I'm intrigued by why you say the ending of 2666 was clever - would you mind elaborating? I personally found the ending disappointing, so I'm wondering whether there was something I missed.

I'm interested in whether you think the novels would have worked published as stand alone parts? In my view, they would not have been anywhere near as successful, because, as you say, you really only appreciate the way in which all of the parts are related when you read part five. I would never have read all five if they had been published separately (I wasn't particularly taken with the first part. It was nice, but I felt like it wasn't going anywhere).

I'm still trying to put together my thoughts on the novel coherently over on my thread - I might get there eventually!

230Poquette
Editado: Maio 18, 2011, 3:58 pm

Hi Tine, thanks for stopping by.

By "ending," I meant the extended ending which, for me, began towards the end (p. 864 in my edition) with the section beginning, "And at last we come to Archimboldi's sister, Lotte Reiter." A few pages later when the character Walter Haas is introduced and then she marries him and they have a son named Klaus Haas, I experienced a tiny frisson and a vision of the entire novel flashed before my eyes. All was explained as it dawned on me why Archimboldi disappeared in Mexico, etc., etc. The rest were details. From my point of view, that was a moment of pure genius. It cannot be easy to create a moment like that in a novel. In fairness, I probably should have said that in my review.

I hope that clarifies my comment.

Someone famously said that artists have a higher tolerance for ambiguity than the rest of us, and that thought was always in the background even when I was asking myself why I was continuing to read this book which seemed to be going nowhere. I kept going for two reasons. One was that I was reading 2666 as part of a group read in Le Salon (you might like to look at that thread), and the other was that I genuinely wanted to see more of the smart writing that characterized the early pages of Part I. There were momentary flashes, especially and ironically in Part IV, the part that led to my overall negative feeling about the book.

231Poquette
Editado: Maio 18, 2011, 4:20 pm

Christine, I forgot to address your question about whether I thought the five parts of the novel would work as stand-alone publications. I don't feel they would because there are too many loose ends. When I got to the end of Part I, I felt it was just the beginning and was dismayed when I eventually realized that we would be hearing no more about the four critics. Part II doesn't answer the lingering questions about Amalfitano, which are never answered. Part III shows promise as a thriller, but it ends with no resolution. This explains in part the feeling of "so what?" and "where is this going?" and contributes to the sense that each "part" is really merely a chapter. The ambiguities of these hanging threads were almost too much to deal with until the surprising resolution towards the end. But that's just one person's view. I am well aware that mine is a minority opinion.

232TineOliver
Maio 18, 2011, 6:53 pm

231: As you would have seen over in my thread, I agree with you (largely). I think it would be possible to have the works stand on their own, but that they work much better as parts of a whole, read in close succession. For me, the best part of 2666 was the way those threads all tied in together, which I don't think you'd get if you read the parts separately.

In respect of the ending, I did really enjoy most of the last part (mostly for the reasons you set out above), but when I closed the book and sat down to think about all I had read, I felt disappointed. I still do.

233Poquette
Maio 28, 2011, 5:24 pm

Talking about C.S. Lewis's The Discarded Image here and there on other threads, I am reminded that the cosmos as it is known today would boggle the minds of the medievals whose notion of the universe was large, but with limitations. Here is a picture that gives us a mindboggling hint of cosmic dimensions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Star-sizes.jpg

234baswood
Maio 28, 2011, 6:54 pm

Suzanne, fascinating link and thank you for the link on my thread which I will look at tomorrow. Too tired tonight. It is 1 am here and we have just got home from the inaugural concert at Marciac's brand new La Strada theatre. After the concert the mayor invited all concert goers to join him for drinks and amuse bouche at the town hall.... The champagne flowed.

235ChocolateMuse
Maio 30, 2011, 12:03 am

Oh wow, Suzanne! Fascinating!

236Poquette
Maio 30, 2011, 6:01 pm

Been reading A World of Great Stories with some of the gang over in Le Salon. It's a collection of 115 stories from all over the world — some better than others, but altogether fairly good, some rather sordid tales but beautifully written. A case in point:

The heavens hung dark and gray above the spires of the cathedral, stillness lay and dreamed in the treetops, the air was as though filled with pitying kindness and cool, chaste caresses. Far away across the plain the sky was a mild and sad symphonic prelude in violet-gray and transparent blue-green, where the stars had just dissolved . . .

* * * * *

He who doesn't hear too many empty words, to him everything begins to speak: the light, clouds, lamps, trees.

– Sigfrid Siwertz, "In Spite of Everything"

237Poquette
Editado: Maio 30, 2011, 11:02 pm

One Hundred Best Books, by John Cowper Powys (1915)

On the group read thread for Porius in Le Salon, Barry listed three books by John Cowper Powys that were available free for the asking at the Gutenberg Project to read on line or download, and specifically in our case, to the Kindle. This piqued my interest, of course, and when I had a few moments this afternoon, I took the opportunity to follow suit. The three books are:

One Hundred Best Books
Suspended Judgments: Essays on Books and Sensations
Visions and Revisions: A Book of Literary Devotions

I ended up reading One Hundred Best Books this afternoon. It is very short, pithy and to the point beginning with an introductory essay on "Books and Reading," followed by the list with a short commentary on each book. Powys makes clear that this is a very personal list and in fact in answer to the question which he poses rhetorically:

"What is one to read? the best reply must always be the most personal: "Whatever profoundly and permanently stimulates your imagination."
However, this presents a bit of a conundrum because the chances are one actually has to read something to know whether it will "profoundly and permanently stimulate your imagination."

Powys starts off with an almost sophomoric breeziness which reminds me of the kind of thing you would find in a college yearbook. But eventually he settles down into a more normal style of discourse, presenting his discussion of what goes into literary taste, both personal and cultural, and invites the reader to either agree or disagree and make his own list.

In his view, if there is a secret to the "art of literary taste," it may simply lie in "the art of life itself," meaning:

"the capacity for discovering the real fatality, the real predestined direction of one's intrinsic nature and the refusal, when this is found, to waste one's energies in alien paths and irrelevant junketings."
This is the soundest possible advice for a young reader — or perhaps even for an old seasoned reader.

At the time he wrote this (1915), apparently great hulking novels had gone out of fashion. In fact, he laments a time when people

"in the old, sweet, epicurean way, loved to loiter through huge digressive books, with the ample unpremeditated enjoyment of leisurely travelers wayfaring along a wonderful road."
There is no shortage of "huge digressive books" on the list to whet the appetite. Lists such as Powys's One Hundred Best Books are always great fun to peruse and compare with one's own taste, and this one is no exception, allowing for differences in contemporary fashions — both his and ours. It is gratifying to see how many books on the list are still thriving as favored reading today.

What's on the list, you ask? I invite you to download it and see for yourself.

238ChocolateMuse
Maio 31, 2011, 2:18 am

I love that second Siwertz quote.

239baswood
Maio 31, 2011, 4:32 am

Hi Suzanne,
I will do the download to find out what books he reviewed.

I love that quote

"in the old, sweet, epicurean way, loved to loiter through huge digressive books, with the ample unpremeditated enjoyment of leisurely travelers wayfaring along a wonderful road."

He obviously tried to right the balance himself. He could have been writing about Porius.

I'm still reading The Discarded Image - I'll post about it later.

240dmsteyn
Editado: Maio 31, 2011, 1:22 pm

Wow, Suzanne, that quote that baswood mentions seems to be the quintessential description of my reading of The Anatomy of Melancholy. Surprised that he doesn't have it on his list. I'm a bit sad that I'm too late to read Porius with the group; maybe I'll read it on my own later.

241Poquette
Maio 31, 2011, 3:01 pm

Rena - I love that quote too. It ought to be famous.

Barry - Indeed, I believe Powys WAS writing about himself. Self-serving, would you say?

242Poquette
Maio 31, 2011, 3:05 pm

Hi, dmsteyn, thanks for stopping by. You are NOT too late to read Porius with the group. We only started May 21st, and Peter (Porius) says this is to be a slow read, going for the rest of the year. So by all means, join us.

243zenomax
Maio 31, 2011, 3:21 pm

Yes, some very nice quotes.

I have been thinking about animism and the life of inanimate objects quite often over the last few weeks, and have come across pertinent references almost everywhere, including here.

244dmsteyn
Maio 31, 2011, 3:25 pm

Ok, I'll see if I can order it from a local online shop. Is there a difference between the edition that came out in 2007, and the one that is coming out in August (according to Amazon.co.uk)?

245Poquette
Maio 31, 2011, 4:18 pm

I just checked Amazon US and they are showing only one copy of Porius in stock! And they are not showing a projected new edition. So I suspect it will be a reprint. But we're all using the 2007 edition and you'd probably want to have the same one for page references, etc. You might be able to find a used one. Good luck!

246baswood
Maio 31, 2011, 6:04 pm

Hi Suzanne, I'm slowing up a bit with the Discarded image and thats because I am making so many notes. The whole chapter on the heavens is very good indeed.

Chapter VII Earth and her inhabitants has also provided a few light bulb moments. I particularly found helpful his ideas on the rational soul (p156 onwards) and how a modern day usage for reason is probably too narrow when applying it to medieval texts. This section is really worth spending some time with.

I have downloaded those pieces by JCP onto the kindle and have really enjoyed his introduction to 100 best books. I particularly like this:

The thing is a passion; a sort of delicate madness and like other passions, quite unintelligible to those who are outside.

He is very strong on European literature which is another big gap for me.

247Poquette
Jun 1, 2011, 3:28 am

Barry, delighted you are so caught up in The Discarded Image. I too liked the chapter on the heavens once I understood it! The chapter on the Longaevi was a bit beyond my ken having never heard the term, truthfully. That was probably the chapter I liked least in the entire book. Fairies and elves are not my thing.

Earth and its inhabitants is another matter. That section you cite is especially rich. One thing that really struck me was on p. 158:

Yet nearly all moralists before the eighteenth century regarded Reason as the organ of morality. The moral conflict was depicted as one between Passion and Reason, not between Passion and 'conscience', or 'duty', or 'goodness'. Prospero in forgiving his enemies, declares that he is siding, not with his charity or mercy, but with ' his nobler reason' (Tempest, v, i, 26).

Regarding JCP and European literature, I was wondering whether people still read Arnold Bennett, or Anatole France or Oliver Onions, to name a few. Also, have you heard of Artzibasheff, Gilbert Cannan, or G. D'Annunzio? Those names are unfamiliar to me. Do you suppose they were au courant circa 1915?

For some reason Remy de Gourmont A Night in the Luxembourg Gardens intrigues me. Perhaps that's because I spent a day wandering around there.

I noted he included the Oxford Book of English Verse, which is still a classic, of course. Didn't you say you have that?

248baswood
Jun 1, 2011, 7:30 pm

Hi Suzanne,

I finished The Discarded Image today and found it fascinating right up to the last page. The influence of the model is very interesting, but here Lewis is on more shaky ground and its all the more interesting for that. He attempts to use the model he has built to explain why they wrote the way they did. As previously in the book he relies heavily on Chaucer for his examples and although I can relate to this from my reading I am wondering if he should have provided other examples.

I found Earth and her Inhabitants and The influence of the model easier to grasp, but I am sure there is a lot I have missed so this evening I am writing up the notes I made. I will probably do a review soon.

The epilogue is fascinating and could be read as a separate essay. This passage on page 222 rang bells with me:

We are all, very properly, familiar with the idea that in every age the human mind is deeply influenced by the accepted model of the universe. But there is a two-way traffic, the Model is also influenced by the prevailing temper of the mind.

This was published in 1964 well before scientists like Stephen Hawking were trying to produce a model of the universe for our current time. I don't pretend to understand the models of the universe today and the theme that continually emerges is that no one really knows or can agree.
Of course they did know in the middle ages and we might know in the future especially if there is a turn away from science back to a religion of some sort that is widely accepted and provides a model that people at the time can relate to.

Thanks Suzanne for reading along with me and for providing those examples when I got a bit confused.

I have heard of Gilbert Cannan and D'Annunzio I think, but have not read anything by them. I have read a few Arnold Bennett Clayhanger Anna of the Five Towns and Hilda Lessways some time ago and remember enjoying them and so yes I would read some more Arnold Bennett.

I think you could do wonderful things with the name Artsibasheff and no I have never heard of him.

249ChocolateMuse
Jun 1, 2011, 10:46 pm

Suz, I don't think Arnold Bennett is read widely these days - but I read him (if you want a good listen try the readings by Andy Minter on Librivox.org) and I know Porius is a Bennett-appreciator.

I haven't read the others you name, have you?

250Poquette
Jun 2, 2011, 1:46 am

Rena – I've read bits and pieces of Arnold Bennett and Anatole France, but have not even heard of Oliver Onions, Artzibashef (Wikipedia spelling), Gilbert Cannan and G. D'Annunzio.

Today I found serendipitously a copy of A Night in the Luxembourg for five bucks. Will report more later on that — if there's anything worthwhile to report, that is.

251Poquette
Editado: Jun 2, 2011, 1:57 am

Hi Barry —

He attempts to use the model he has built to explain why they wrote the way they did.

Actually, Lewis didn't build the model; he is merely reporting. My main criticism of his book is that there are not enough signposts in his discussion to clearly state this. It was only my second time through that I insisted on finding a thread of an outline. If I might suggest, now that you've finished the book, go back to Chapter 3 and skim it. The first couple of pages will make more sense now.

Just to review, the cosmic idea behind the medieval world view goes back to Plato in his Timaeus, massaged by Aristotle and a really cogent outline of it appears in Ptolemy's Almagest (2nd century AD). Hints at it appeared in Cicero's Dream of Scipio, Macrobius's Commentary on the Dream of Scipio, Boethius' Consolation of Philosophy and Lucan and Statius, as described in The Discarded Image, Chapter 3 and 4.

Later, circa 1148 or so, Bernard Silvestris elaborated in his Cosmographia.

May I recommend the following links for elaboration:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almagest#Ptolemy.27s_cosmos

Scroll down to the section on Ptolemy's planetary model, and you will see a diagram similar to the one I linked you to before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmographia_(Bernard_Silvestris)

Many medieval writers, especially Chaucer as you know well, but also Spenser, Shakespeare, eventually Milton, and Edward Young (see below), among many others, gave many hints — and they really are only hints. They assume we share their world view. When you read the medieval poets now with the idea of the heavenly spheres in mind, and other aspects of medeival thinking, they jump out at once in the course of reading. For example:

Dryden, "Song for Saint Cecilia's Day":

From harmony, from heavenly harmony,
This universal frame began;
From harmony to harmony
Through all the compass of the notes it ran,
The diapason closing full in man.

Spenser, "Hymn of Heavenly Beauty":

Then look, who list they gazeful eyes to feed
With sight of that is fair, look on the frame
Of this wide universe and therein read
The endless kinds of creatures which by name
Thou canst not count, much less their natures' aim;
All which are made with wondrous wide respect
And all with admiraqble beauty deckt.

Milton, Paradise Lost:

Well hast thou taught the way that might direct
Our knowledge, and the scale of Nature set
From center to circumference, whereon
In contemplation of created things
By steps we may ascend to God.

Milton, Comus:

We that are of purer fire
Imitate the Starry Quire
Who i their nightly watchful Sphears
Lead in swift round the Months and Years,
The Sounds and Seas with all their finny drove
Now to the Moon in wavering Morrice move.

Reading "Il Penseroso," one feels the atmosphere of the medieval world view throughout.

Finally, there is Edward Young (1681-1765), Night Thoughts, lines 1706-1737:

I wake; and, waking, climb Night’s radiant scale,
From sphere to sphere; the steps by nature set
For man’s ascent; at once to tempt and aid;
To tempt his eye, and aid his towering thought;
Till it arrives at the great goal of all.
In ardent Contemplation’s rapid car,
From earth, as from my barrier, I set out.
How swift I mount! Diminish’d earth recedes;
I pass the moon; and, from her farther side,
Pierce heaven’s blue curtain; strike into remote;
Where, with his lifted tube, the subtle sage
His artificial, airy journey takes,
And to celestial lengthens human sight.
I pause at every planet on my road,
And ask for Him who gives their orbs to roll,
Their foreheads fair to shine. From Saturn’s ring,
In which, of earths an army might be lost,
With the bold comet, take my bolder flight,
Amid those sovereign glories of the skies,
Of independent, native lustre, proud;
The souls of systems! and the lords of life,
Through their wide empires!—What behold I now?
A wilderness of wonder burning round;
Where larger suns inhabit higher spheres;
Perhaps the villas of descending gods;
Nor halt I here; my toil is but begun;
’Tis but the threshold of the Deity;
Or, far beneath it, I am grovelling still.

Available at http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/33156

Hope this is all helpful.

252baswood
Jun 2, 2011, 5:12 am

Hi Suzanne, As soon as I had posted I wondered if Lewis had built the model from the writings of the past or whether it existed in the minds of the medievals as a model. Thanks for putting me straight on that.

Excellent links as always and I have had to stop myself loading up the classical stuff on my kindle. Forward! I am going to be marching forward on to Spenser with the Faerie Queene very soon.

But what a reading experience theThe discarded image has been. After reading your examples I picked up my copy of The Penguin Book of Renaissance Verse 1509-1659 and of course there are so many references to the cosmos. Before I read Lewis's book I had realised that the medievals view of the cosmos was very different to ours, but I think what I have gained is how important it was and how much it influenced their thoughts. Also of course he explains reasonably clearly how it all worked.

I would quibble with the undertitle of his book An introduction to medieval and Renaissance Literature. It is more than that and I think you would have had to have read medieval literature to get the full benefit and to understand his examples.

253baswood
Jun 2, 2011, 11:01 am

Although I won't be checking out the classics, I will be getting the Edward Young, who is new to me

254ncgraham
Jun 2, 2011, 1:51 pm

Lovely review of One Hundred Best Books. I did get on Project Gutenberg and looked at it—but I must admit that I simply skimmed the list and read those entries that stuck out to me. I particularly enjoyed Powys's thoughts on Austen, and I'm sure my dad would be both surprised and glad that Scott was on the list. Was a little surprised that, with all the nineteenth-century British writers included, Eliot did not make the cut. (Tolstoy didn't either, did he?) Of course, I'm not biased at all, am I?

255Poquette
Jun 2, 2011, 2:28 pm

Barry – I agree with you that The Discarded Image is much more than an introduction to medieval and renaissance lit. It is a key to understanding the entire mentality of that thousand-year period when the Ptolemaic view of the cosmos held sway. Understanding how deeply that medieval world view was embedded in the psyche of the entire culture helps to appreciate how difficult it was for the Church and the whole of society to accept Copernicus and then Galileo when they came along and turned the universe upside down in effect.

All of this ties in with the themes I have been pursuing for the past year or so regarding the pagan influence in a society that was dominated in an almost totalitarian way by institutional Christianity. The powers that be would brook no dissent from their pronounced view of the universe, yet it is the irony of the ages that that view was totally from pagan origins. The Christianity that is written of in the four gospels does not represent a cosmological view of any kind. It was totally focused on the "return" of the Messiah and the last days, last judgment and all that. The structure of institutional Christianity was based on pagan models, right down to the basilica structure that was adopted and adapted to the evolving Christian church. So it should be no surprise that the cosmological world view that crept into Christian dogma, particularly after Christianity became the state religion, was adopted hook, line and sinker from pagan models, aided and abetted by Neoplatonists and the early medieval writers such as Macrobius and Boethius and Pseudo-Dionysius.

All of this becomes relevant for me when reading medieval and Renaissance literature because the view of the cosmos is represented in metaphor and even subject matter, and understanding this world view goes a long way toward rendering that literature intelligible to us in our time who have been influenced by the Enlightenment and the ensuing scientific revolution which, even though it continued to preach "natural philosophy," had come to view the cosmos much differently.

So, for me, Lewis's book is absolutely key, difficult though it is in many ways. In fact, considering that it is only two hundred pages, it takes real work to digest and understand it all, but it is well worth it in the long run if one is interested in reading and understanding the literature of the Western tradition.

I'm glad you stuck with it, and it's been fun to review the book once again along with you and bring these concepts to the forefront.

Regarding the Edward Young, that was new to me as well, but I am quite taken with the beauty of the poetry and want to spend some time reading it. Glad you find it interesting as well. Maybe we can discuss that if and when we get into it.

256Poquette
Editado: Jun 2, 2011, 2:32 pm

Hi Nathan – thanks re the review. It's such a simple little book but quite interesting. Powys's introductory essay goes into how personal taste governs his choices, and he even acknowledges that the omission of certain authors — including Eliot, by the way — was inevitably going to raise eyebrows. Anyway, it's bound to bring out the bias in us all. That's part of its charm, isn't it?

257Poquette
Jun 3, 2011, 3:28 am

I believe the time has come to switch over to a new thread, which I sorely regret. For me, this extended conversation about books has been a transformative experience, one I hope will continue. When I began Poquette's Bookaccino, I never dreamt that it would grow to this length. But there is something terribly inspiring and energizing about all the conversations about books that have occurred here and elsewhere. Thanks to all of you for accompanying me on this journey. Please join me in Poquette's Bookaccino II.

This thread is hereby closed.