December TIOLI: Read a book about religion

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December TIOLI: Read a book about religion

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1Citizenjoyce
Editado: Dez 14, 2010, 12:56 am

This is a branch off the main TIOLI challenge thread for December: http://www.librarything.com/topic/103284

December is a time for all kinds of religious celebrations. Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, nothing for Islam this year, Solstice, Yule. As the atheists say, "The axial tilt is the reason for the season." Almost whatever your belief, it's a time to think about religion. I'll be reading a book about belief in general and why people believe, a couple of books about forced polygamy because I'm somewhat obsessed with the FLDS, something by a favorite Jewish agnostic, 2 books by Karen Armstrong because she's the perfect person to talk about religion, a book kind of about Catholicism because one of my favorite authors said it was one of her favorite books, and a book about witchcraft in Kansas. So far I'm not planning to read anything about atheism because I don't think I'll have time, but I'll see.


Church of Lies - Flora Jessop and Paul T. Brown - FLDS
Islam: A Short History - Karen Armstrong
Me Of Little Faith - Lewis Black -Judaism, Agnosticism
The Nineteenth Wife - David Ebershoff- early LDS
Not In Kansas Anymore: A Curious Tale of How Magic Is Transforming America - Christine Wicker - Witchcraft
The Spiral Staircase: My Climb Out of Darkness - Karen Armstrong - Catholicism
SuperSense: Why We Believe in the Unbelievable - Bruce M. Hood - Belief
The Towers of Trebizond - Rose MacAulay- Catholicism

2teelgee
Nov 28, 2010, 2:56 am

Oo, what an eclectic list Joyce. Not In Kansas sounds fascinating, I just put it on hold.

3avatiakh
Nov 28, 2010, 3:00 am

I've added A Golden Treasury of Jewish Tales which I'd already planned to read for my 1010 challenge Israeli writers category. There is a family connection too, Barash was my father-in-law's uncle. He was one of the prime movers in the new Hebrew literature of the early 20th century in Israel, though only 3 of his books have been translated to English.
It is a retelling of many traditional Jewish tales from East Europe.

4Citizenjoyce
Nov 28, 2010, 3:53 am

I've had Not In Kansas Anymore for at least a year after hearing something about it on PBS or NPR. I can't remember which anymore, but I think it's time I got to it.

A writer in the family, avatiakh, how exciting. Are there golems and things? I'll have to see if it's available in our library.

5Citizenjoyce
Nov 28, 2010, 4:05 am

I just checked. We have no Jewish folk tales in our library system older than 1989. You'll have to give us the run down.

6_Zoe_
Nov 28, 2010, 9:07 am

I think I may own a copy of that Islam book. I'll see if I can dig it up.

7Eat_Read_Knit
Editado: Dez 1, 2010, 3:10 pm

I shall definitely be trying to read something for this challenge.

I pondered moving On the Incarnation from the Christmas challenge to this one, but I think I am going to leave it where it is.

I've listed Minaret and In This House of Brede, but I shall try to find some non-fiction as well.

ETA - In fact, having just failed to get Reformation into the November history challenge, I might list it for this one.

8ffortsa
Dez 3, 2010, 2:55 pm

I've had one of Armstrong's books on the shelf for almost a year now. Maybe I'll have time to get to it this month.

9Citizenjoyce
Dez 3, 2010, 3:47 pm

I hope so, ffortsa. I've read only 1 little book of hers A Short History of Myth and found it very informative. I've heard a couple of interviews with and about her, about her journey from nun to atheist to religious appreciator. I like the way her mind works and help mine work.

10_Zoe_
Dez 3, 2010, 3:54 pm

I've been meaning to say, Joyce, that I really enjoy your themed challenges and I hope you'll continue doing them. I don't always manage to fit in a book, but I always start out the month eager to do so and I enjoy the discussions regardless.

11Citizenjoyce
Dez 3, 2010, 4:12 pm

Thanks, Zoe. I'm having fun reading things I've wanted to read for a long time and some I'd never even thought of.

12avatiakh
Editado: Dez 3, 2010, 4:45 pm

#8> I listened to Karen Armstrong's Jerusalem: one city three faiths and thought it gave a very concise overview of the importance of the city from the earliest of times to the modern day.

13Citizenjoyce
Dez 4, 2010, 2:49 am

I removed The Nineteenth Wife. I thought it was about one of Brigham Young's wives, but it's a combination of her story with a fictional modern FLDS story. A story about the plight of a polygamous woman written by a man - not interested. Instead I started listening to Islam, the religion started as a way of uniting Arabs and making sure the less fortunate were not ignored by the very wealthiest. Muhammad intended it as an all encompassing, rather practical religion. There was no division between religion and politics or religion and sex, all was one. Armstrong says it started out as very supportive of women, and very accepting of Jews and Christians. She said the antisemitism came from Christians and didn't really start until modern day Israel came to be. Muhammad united the Arabs, then after his death the religion degenerates into this faction fighting that faction for control. Yawn. I'm reading both If God Were a Space Alien by James Hamilton {it came free on my Nook)
and also the enticing Not In Kansas Anymore: A Curious Tale of How Magic Is Transforming America. I'm supposed to be reading Little Women but had to give myself a breather after 2 chapters. I don't know if I can make it through.

14Citizenjoyce
Dez 4, 2010, 5:14 pm

I forgot to mention that I finished Supersense: Why We Believe in the Unbelievable. Some people have found it simplistic, but I found it very interesting. Bruce Hood theorizes that children are intuitive thinkers seeing patterns in their environment whether or not they exist; thinking there are causes for and anticipated end points for all occurrences; and thinking all things have souls or essences. He also cites a little of the research on the belief or god gene, VMAT2 that predisposes people for belief and the existence of the dopamine system in which the higher the levels of dopamine, the more likely a person is to see patterns in objects and occurrences. He says that reasoning comes later in life after we have had scientific education, but that intuitive thinking and reasoning coexist. No matter how rational we may be, we may still rely on intuition for making some decisions.

15keristars
Dez 4, 2010, 5:24 pm

If you're interested in the origins of mythological stories, which are the basis for religions, you might like to read When They Severed Earth from Sky by the Barbers (husband-wife team of anthropologists - I think one is a linguist, the other is an archaeologist?). I found it to be rather interesting, with theories about how myths could have been created, and why there are similar stories in different cultures. It focuses a lot on volcanoes and astronomy, and I think floods?

It sounds like Supersense has a similar thesis, but based more on science and biology than environmental things.

Also, if you're interested in a YA novel about religion, I rather liked Godless by Pete Hautman. It's a story that attempts to show how people are drawn to religion, how some religions (like $cientology) are created, and even though it ultimately supports agnosticism or atheism (at least, for me, as someone who likes reading about mythology & folklore and who is atheist), it shows how religion can be useful and good for some people (but not necessarily all). And it's all done through the story of some kids getting bored and creating a fake religion based on the idea that the town's water tower is a god.

Of course, as a YA novel, Godless is also about growing up and becoming an independent person and learning to make adult decisions. (Actually, I'd say that's the main point of the book, like many YA novels, it's just wrapped up in the religion stuff.)

16Citizenjoyce
Dez 4, 2010, 5:30 pm

Thanks, keristars. They both look good. I hadn't seen the term $cientology before. How apt.

17Citizenjoyce
Dez 11, 2010, 4:29 pm

I finished a few religion books. Islam taught me quite a lot, which isn't surprising since I knew almost nothing about the religion. Karen Armstrong shows some similarities between Islam and Judaism. For one thing she says Muhammad thought the Jews would consider him one of the great prophets. He had no animosity against either Judaism or Christianity and respected both as religions of "the Book". All the wars within Muslim countries and the fighting to see which religion was best for the people resulted eventually in Christianity and Judaism being pushed further and further aside, but she says that the true antisemitism, which Muslims got first from Christians, didn't flower until the state of Israel was established. She says that Islam, like Judaism, is a religion of orthopraxy rather than orthodoxy meaning that what the adherent does is more important than what s/he believes. She also says that neither originally had anything to say about an afterlife. She doesn't mention the 42 virgins that we've all heard about terrorists being promised.

Muhammad started Islam as a way to bring comfort and equality to people, to assure that the rich would share their wealth with the poor, so it has always been both a religious and political movement. At times reformers have tried to separate the religion from politics and make it only spiritual. At times also leaders have varied between saying everyone is equally able to enjoy the full benefits of Islam to those who say only a few intelligent elect can truly understand the revelations. There have also been those who deny all aspects of anthropomorphism saying there is no god who sits on a thrown or "knows" things. Allah is only spirit.

Regarding the modern fundamentalists with their strong misogyny and violent bent, she says in all religions when people resort to fundamentalism as a response to perceived threats from secular modernism, one of the first actions is to decrease the freedom of women. She says that the glories of the Muslim world have faded because, unlike Europe which has separated church and state, Muslim countries do not so are not able to reap the benefits of change. Muslims both like the benefits of modernization but feel threatened by the secularism they see that drives it. The more threatened they feel, the more fundamentalist they become, the more fundamentalist they become the more secularists attack their beliefs. It's a vicious cycle that, alas, she does not show a solution.

18Citizenjoyce
Dez 11, 2010, 4:41 pm

I also finished If God Were a Space Alien, which I mentioned on the large thread was a difficult read. One of the things I found most pertinent was that, when discussing the difference between science and religion, Hamilton says that saying "god did it" ends the search for any other cause. Why does the sun rise in the east and set in the west? God did it. So much for astronomy. He tries to discover where this place is that dead people go, where god and satan live. Is it an alternate universe? Are there laws that apply to it. He can't see any laws of physics that would allow for such a universe. Is god able to exist beyond any laws of nature or physics? He says if this is so, then god is not only unknowable but irrelevant. I think trying to show believers why belief is wrong is a useless activity. But showing how the use of the god concept can halt scientific inquiry is absolutely pertinent.

19avatiakh
Dez 13, 2010, 3:30 am

I picked up an interesting book in a library sale yesterday, I usually buy these religious books for my brother as he's a pastor but I might read this one before I pass it on. Finding Sanctuary: monastic steps for everyday life outlines the wisdom of St Benedict and suggest how it can be applied outside the monastery - it's for people looking for spiritual space and peace in the busy modern world.

20avatiakh
Dez 13, 2010, 3:34 am

#15> another YA with a religious bent is Marcelo in the real World, Marcelo is a high functioning autistic and his special interest is religion. This isn't the main theme of the novel, but quite an interesting underlying focus.

21Eat_Read_Knit
Dez 13, 2010, 6:20 am

#19 Kerry, that does sound interesting. If the author is as sensible and as good at getting his point across as he seemed to be in the TV series The Monastery and The Big Silence, it should be a very useful and informative book.

22SqueakyChu
Dez 13, 2010, 10:45 am

Mensagem removida pelo autor.

23Citizenjoyce
Dez 13, 2010, 2:02 pm

#20 Marcelo looks interesting. I've wishlisted it.

24labwriter
Dez 13, 2010, 3:40 pm

Joyce, that's a very interesting list of books. I'm pretty late to the party here, but I'm constantly hearing in the other threads about the TIOLI challenge, so I thought it was about time that I checked it out. This seems like a great idea! Thanks for the work of setting it up and keeping it going.

I've been wanting to read Walking the Bible: A Journey Through the Five Books of Moses. This book is described as "one man's epic odyssey"--he went by foot, jeep, rowboat, and camel. Published in 2001, it's been sitting on my shelf for awhile. I probably won't finish this by the end of December, but I could at least get it started.

25souloftherose
Dez 13, 2010, 3:55 pm

#19 I have that one!

I've been trying to read it since the beginning of the year, which makes it sound really hard to read but it's not at all. It's more that what he says is so deep and insightful that part of my brain goes 'wait, you really need time to think about this' and then I stop. I really just need to read it...

Hope you find it helpful Kerry.

26_Zoe_
Dez 13, 2010, 6:21 pm

>24 labwriter: Welcome to TIOLI! Have you looked at the wiki?

27labwriter
Dez 13, 2010, 6:30 pm

Oh my, no I have not, but now I just did. How overwhelming. Yikes.

28_Zoe_
Dez 13, 2010, 6:33 pm

Heh, I guess it can look pretty frightening at first. I bet you'll get used to it pretty quickly, though. Have fun!

Oh, and I just realized that the thread might be more accessible. Madeline always writes up a nice summary at the top and you can get a quick overview of this month's categories there.

29avatiakh
Dez 13, 2010, 6:34 pm

#25 - Heather - it does seem to be reader-friendly and I can understand how you would take it slowly through the book. I completed a couple of religion papers when I did my education degree a few years ago, I find it a fascinating subject.

30labwriter
Dez 13, 2010, 6:40 pm

>28 _Zoe_:. Zoe, thanks so much!

31SqueakyChu
Dez 13, 2010, 7:09 pm

> 24

Hi Becky!

Welcome to the TIOLI challenges. The TIOLI is *supposed* to look overwhelming, but it's really not. The only thing that you need to do to participate is finish one book before the end of the month from any of the challenges that are presented at the top of this thread and enter it on the wiki. Be sure to read message #1 of that main page in its entirety. The directions for updating the wiki are on the wiki itself. If you have any questions, just ask.

Take this opportunity to learn how the wiki works. It's a really fun part of LibraryThing simply because it's a web page that we can all work on together.

Have fun!

32SqueakyChu
Dez 13, 2010, 7:10 pm

Joyce, could you link message #1 of this thread back to the main TIOLI page? Thanks!

33labwriter
Dez 13, 2010, 10:26 pm

>31 SqueakyChu:. Gee, Madeline, thanks so much!

34SqueakyChu
Dez 13, 2010, 11:03 pm

You're welcome!

35Citizenjoyce
Dez 14, 2010, 1:03 am

labwriter, I think I saw the author of Walking the Bible on a couple of talk shows. Did he try to live and dress like the people in biblical times and didn't cut his hair or beard? That's dedicating yourself to research. I read that PBS did a series on his book but didn't see it. Let us know how it is. TIOLI is a fun place to be, I hope you enjoy us.

36keristars
Dez 14, 2010, 1:19 am

35> Isn't that one "A Year of Living Biblically"?

37Citizenjoyce
Dez 14, 2010, 1:32 am

Right you are, keristars.

38avatiakh
Dez 17, 2010, 8:04 pm

I finished The Golden Treasury of Jewish Folktales a few days ago and forgot to come back to comment in this thread. Collections of folktales are able to be read across all age groups and this one was a delightful introduction to the wonderfully rich heritage of Jewish storytelling. I don't know what Barash's sources were, but his retellings were for the new generation of Hebrew speaking children in the early years of Eretz Israel. This collection comes from a number of his Hebrew works and includes stories of wise rabbis, pious scholars, miracles etc etc from all around Europe and the Middle East.

39SqueakyChu
Editado: Dez 17, 2010, 8:38 pm

I just finished reading My Jesus Year which is the story of Benyamin Cohen, an Orthodox Jewish man (and rabbi's son), who spends a year exploring churches in the Bible Belt. I had so much to say about this book that I think it best to just point you to my review rather than rewite what I wrote elsewhere.

I'd love to talk about this book. Has anyone else read it, or is anyone else planning to read it?

40Citizenjoyce
Dez 18, 2010, 12:04 am

avatiakh, The Golden Treasury of Jewish Folktales is written in Hebrew? It looks interesting.

Madeline, I can't imagine a person doing such a thing - a whole year of Christian churches. What an idea.

I finished Religion, Myth, and Magic: The Anthropology of Religion (The Modern Scholar) which turned out to be a very basic anthropological study of religion. Basic worked well for me right now. A few ideas were very interesting to me. Johnston tells a creation story from a tribe in Papua New Guinea which states that the world was at first populated by nothing but people, there were no other features. After a while the people were cold and hungry so one man stood up and assigned some of the people to be mountains, some grass, some trees, some fish, etc. When the world was full of all other needed things the people who were left became the ancestors of modern people. I can't imagine a creation story that starts rather than ends with people.

The other part I liked best was her discussion of the formation of new religions. Johnston says that new religions are formed when there is political oppression and a new movement arises to modify the current religion to fit new circumstances. She says the new movements are generally started by one person with some simple rules. The first one she mentions was the Ghost Dance religion which was a response to white oppression of the Indians. The one I thought of, having been a Mormon myself, was Joseph Smith's creation of that religion, but she doesn't mention that. What she does surprisingly come up with is that the Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians so Moses founded a new Judaism, with the ten commandments, when he lead people out of their circumstances. Then she said when the Romans began to oppress the Jews Jesus founded his new religion in response. Again, I'd never thought in such ways.

Being an anthropologist she's very objective, sometimes I thought overly so. In describing female genital mutilation as a kind of women's coming of age ritual she says it can be uncomfortable. Perhaps not quite a strong enough word. She did, however, help me somewhat overcome my phobia of veiling describing it along the same terms as a way for women to assert their femininity. She shows how modern, even feminist, women might embrace the wearing of the veil. Objectivity can be useful if not taken too far. The same, I think, could be said of many religious rituals.

41avatiakh
Dez 18, 2010, 12:58 am

#40> No, it's in English, Barash retold (Yiddish?) folktales in Hebrew and this collection was translated to English. I have quite a few Jewish folktale collections but this was a good place to start.

42Citizenjoyce
Dez 18, 2010, 1:31 am

The Golden Treasury of Jewish Folk Tales is a hard book to find, but I did locate a used one on Amazon (where I almost never shop). I'm looking forward to it.

43SqueakyChu
Dez 18, 2010, 9:36 am

> 40

I like the anthropological idea of the creation of a new religion in response to political oppression. That seems right in some circumstances. However, did that cause Abraham to circumcise his son? I doubt it!! That seemed to have come out of nowhere...although it was commended to Abraham directly from God (if you take the Old Testament literally). I agree about Joseph Smith, though.

In describing female genital mutilation as a kind of women's coming of age ritual she says it can be uncomfortable.

I doubt if male circumcision is anything less than "uncomfortable" either! I also understand there are various degrees of female circumcision, not all as deep or involved.

She did, however, help me somewhat overcome my phobia of veiling

Couldn't you compare the Muslim veiling custom to the Jewish custom of married woman having their head shaved, wearing a wig, or wearing a hat (depending on the degree of observance)?

Objectivity can be useful if not taken too far. The same, I think, could be said of many religious rituals.

Agreed.

44SqueakyChu
Editado: Dez 18, 2010, 9:42 am

> 40

I can't imagine a person doing such a thing

What is it that you can't understand, Joyce? That a religious Jew would even dare to step inside a church or that a man would take a year to explore other religions? The author is a journalist. Therefore he has a keen eye for observation and recording what he sees. He's also very funny, by the way. Cohen's book is light reading but nevertheless heartfelt. I think that's why it appealed to me so much.

By the way, I now have two (BookCrossing-registered) copies of My Jesus Year so if anyone in the US would like to Bookmooch this book from me, please let me know by private message (either on LT or BM).

45Citizenjoyce
Dez 18, 2010, 3:26 pm

Madeline, I can't imagine spending a year of my life involved in any religion, which I think would be something of the way a religious person would feel involving themselves in the life of a different religion. I could handle it a month maybe, but a whole year would be beyond my level of tolerance and interest. However, being a journalist he probably has a far higher level of tolerance than I, and also his interest in research would sustain him. My aunt once told me that I couldn't consider myself a tolerant person because I have such little ability to tolerate the intolerance of others, and I guess stereotypically, I can only think of many of the religions in the Bible belt as being quite intolerant. My cross to bear, so to speak. My reading is gradually helping me overcome my prejudices to a slight extent.

I think what Johnston was referring to with Moses was that Judaism already existed, thus the Abrahamic tradition, but he started a new form of the religion in reaction to Egyptian oppression.

Oh, and equating female circumcision to male circumcision seems very wrong to me. Granted, sometimes female circumcision involves only a nick, in which case the comparison would hold; however infibulation would be more akin to removing a man's whole penis. There is no comparison, and I it goes quite far beyond discomfort.

46SqueakyChu
Dez 18, 2010, 3:57 pm

I can't imagine spending a year of my life involved in any religion

Thought #1:
I think that might have been precisely the reason that Cohen decided to do his "research". Being born into a very religious family meant to him that practically every minute of his waking life his actions (if not his thoughts) are about religion. There's a blessing to say before doing almost everything. There's prayer three times a day. There are kosher rules to follow with everything that is ingested. He was doing these things by rote and found them meaningless. Perhaps it was his "Jewish guilt" that was the motivation force behind what he did.

Thought #2:
If you could create your own "religion", Joyce, what would it be like? What would its most important elements be?

What was Johnston's thoughts on male circumcision? I heat that, in California, there is a movement to outlaw male circumcision, even for religious purposes.

47Citizenjoyce
Dez 18, 2010, 4:09 pm

Johnston didn't mention male circumcision. If she did, I imagine she would say it was a "somewhat uncomfortable" ritual that emphasized male gender.

I would never want to create a religion.

You're making Cohen sound more and more enticing. Did he continue to follow his own daily religious rituals while engaging in those of others? Talk about overload.

48SqueakyChu
Dez 18, 2010, 6:02 pm

Yes, he did, although that is not addressed in the book very much at all. He doesn't drive or ride on the Jewish Sabbath or eat non-kosher food so everything he does is more or less within the constraints of his own religious practice. Well, I'm not sure about his going to confession in a Catholic church, though! :)

It was interesting because some of the services which he attended seemed more "entertainment" to me (and to him) than they were actual religious practice.

49Citizenjoyce
Dez 19, 2010, 3:16 pm

Oh, Madeline, look what you've done to me. I keep thinking about My Jesus Year. Did the people whose churches Cohen visited know he was Jewish? Did they think he'd convert. Oh, to get a Jew to convert to Christianity, what a coup, akin to the joy felt by all mormondom when Gladys Knight converted. I really don't want to read the book, but I'm thinking I might have to.

50SqueakyChu
Dez 19, 2010, 4:49 pm

Go check your private messages. You know you *do* want to read this book. I'm really curious to know your take on it because you were my inspiration for reading it at this time, and religion was *your* TIOLI challenge topic this month.

Cohen tried not to be obvious that he was Jewish. I'm not sure whether or not he was wearing a yarmulke. He was probably wearing his tzitzith (fringes) but they would have been covered by his outer clothing.

In one church with a huge television screen, his face was picked out of the crowd and televised to the whole crowd!

I don't think he attended any of the churches long enough for any of them to think he'd convert.

Conversion is interesting topic, Joyce. I only personally know one Jew who converted to Chritianity. She converted to Greek Orthodox to be married. I'm actually married to an ex-Catholic convert to Judaism, and my future daughter-in-law is now Christian (not of any specific faith, although I think her parents attend a Methodist church) converting to Judaism.

51ffortsa
Dez 23, 2010, 3:43 pm

Is anyone longing for a copy of The Battle for God by Armstrong? I just saw a copy on the swap shelves in my laundry, and would be happy to mail it out within the US.

52Citizenjoyce
Dez 23, 2010, 3:47 pm

I'm not longing for a copy, but I love the idea of swap shelves at your laundry.

53ffortsa
Dez 23, 2010, 10:33 pm

The only trouble is that too many people think that it's the proper place for 5 year old Zagat dining guides and 20 year old law textbooks. someone recently 'curated' the shelves, and they are once again scanable.

54Citizenjoyce
Dez 26, 2010, 4:51 pm

Two major concepts behind magic in Not in Kansas Anymore: A Curious Tale of How Magic Is Transforming America were that people who pursue magic, pagans, those involved in hoodoo, are averse seeing dualism in life: good vs bad. They believe all aspects work together. Bad and good are two halves of the same coin and both equally valuable. (Which concept fits in fine with my current read Bullfinch's Mythology: The Age of Fable those gods are not the rosy cheeked god of Christians but easily angered, powerful sometimes loving, sometimes helpful beings). She mentions how happy and excited we feel when we anticipate an important event and how let down we sometimes are by the even itself and indicates that the whole process is the experience - the anticipation, the event itself, and the let down. It's all one. She also mentions that Alister Crowley and Gerald Gardner were the promoters of the modern, feminist centered take on spirituality while they themselves were rather sadistic and misogynist.

Another concept that stuck with me was that her magical mentors emphasized the necessity of observation. In order to see signs and portents one needs to pay close attention to ones surroundings, and of course, the closer attention one pays, the more signs one sees. I'll bet right now if you have a question about your life if you hold that question in your mind then let it go and look around you as you go throughout your day, you'll see answers. The reason you'll see answers is, as Bruce Hood states in SuperSense, the human mind evolved to form associations and and connections in what it perceives. So, the question is "Should I take that job in a new hospital?" I could look in my backyard and see all the birds flocking together at the feeders and birdbaths and think, Look how happy they are together. I think that means I would be happy associating with my new co workers." Or I could notice that one large grackle grabbed a sparrow out of the air and spent 20 minutes eating it. I could think either, "Maybe the bureaucracy at that hospital is too hard on the workers." Or I could think, "There's probably someone out to get me at my present job, I should take the new one." Or, if I were Alister Crowley like I could think, "There could be some people I would really like to sink my teeth into at that new job." All the answers would come from the same backyard and the same birds, and the interpretation would be all up to me. Wicker says this is the idea behind Transcendentalism and magic, that no matter what the experts think, my interpretation of life is unique and important to me. Obviously both good (innovations, progress) and bad (The Secret) come from that way of thinking.

55carlym
Dez 28, 2010, 8:26 am

After reading the posts on My Jesus Year, Madeleine and Joyce, I think y'all might be interested in In the Land of Believers by Gina Welch. Welch, an atheist, decided to start going to Jerry Falwell's church in Lynchburg, VA, not because she was interested in becoming Christian, but because she was curious about evangelical Christians in light of the role they have played in politics in recent years. As a non-evangelical Christian, I thought it was good to see how someone who isn't Christian views church, but it was just generally an interesting book.

56_Zoe_
Dez 28, 2010, 10:12 am

Also on a similar topic, I really loved The Unlikely Disciple when I read it earlier this year.

57Citizenjoyce
Dez 28, 2010, 1:33 pm

Thanks, carlym. In the Land of Believers looks right up my ally. I hope she didn't suffer through a year of Mr. Falwell. I'll also check out The Unlikely Disciple. I think I've read about it somewhere.

58carlym
Dez 28, 2010, 3:28 pm

I can't remember how long she attended the church. I do recall that she went for a while, stopped, and then went back for another period.

59_Zoe_
Dez 28, 2010, 4:30 pm

In The Unlikely Disciple, a student from Brown decides to spend a year at Falwell's Liberty University to gain some insight into the views of students there.

Meanwhile, I just started Under the Banner of Heaven, and am really impressed with Krakauer's writing once again. It seems like the pages just fly by, though I'm still not sure I'll finish by the end of the month.

60carlym
Dez 29, 2010, 8:55 am

Wow, I can see how the author of In the Land of Believers managed, but I cannot imagine spending a year at Liberty University--despite sharing basic Christian beliefs, I think my views are just too divergent from the prevailing views there.

61Citizenjoyce
Dez 29, 2010, 1:55 pm

Carlym, you're saying the same thing I said about My Jesus Year, which I've just started reading. Maybe The Unlikely Disciple and In The Land of Believers will find the same thing, that we tend to think of evangelicals as intolerant, and perhaps it's the leadership or the tenets of the church that are intolerant not the people who belong to the church. I assume that's what Cohen is going to say, at least. He hasn't started visiting churches yet.

62Citizenjoyce
Editado: Dez 31, 2010, 3:32 pm

I just finished Bullfinch's Mythology: The Age of Fable, and, it was amazing to me. It's sort of Crib Notes for The Iliad, The Odyssey, The Aeneid, The Upanishads, The Vedas, plus information about myths without primary books, like the Druids. The information is fascinating, and the amount of work put into the project is overwhelming. Gods and goddesses throughout the ages are shown to be just and unjust, proud, vain, supportive, vengeful, faithful and arbitrary. It's a little amusing to see him use Christianity as the basis of truth while he refers to all the other religions as superstitions, but what a wealth of information never the less. He gives both the stories of gods and heroes and how they have been referred to in literature, up to that time. Now when I hear of someone's reading Stones For Ibarra, I know who Ibarra was. I listened to the book on audio, but then I had to download one to my Nook because I'm sure it will be a very useful reference.

63carlym
Dez 31, 2010, 7:30 pm

#61: I think that, regardless of whether the people at Liberty would be respectful of my beliefs, it would be difficult to live in that culture. Visiting churches is a little different to me than living there, taking classes, etc., which seems more of a 24/7 thing. The author of In the Land of Believers definitely finds some common ground with the members of Falwell's church (and they weren't mean to her), which was not surprising to me because I live in an area with plenty of people who share those beliefs. I don't think the people at Liberty would be hurtful to someone who didn't share their beliefs, but I just think it would be difficult to live in an environment where pretty much everyone else believed something different about the role of women, political issues, etc. It probably wouldn't be any different for an evangelical spending a year at Berkeley or someplace like that.

64_Zoe_
Jan 1, 2011, 2:34 am

>63 carlym: The author of The Unlikely Disciple actually "went undercover" while he was there, saying that he was an evangelical so that he could get a sense of what it was like to be a normal student there, rather than having everyone's efforts devoted to converting him.

65Citizenjoyce
Jan 1, 2011, 3:49 am

Interesting. Did he find it hard to keep his cover? I'm about 1/2 way through My Jesus Year and Cohen doesn't try to fit in. The rabbi who gives permission for him to go to Christian churches says he has to wear both his press pass and his yarmulke so people will know he's there to observe not be converted. I can see you might get a truer perspective if you tried to fit in, if you could.

66Citizenjoyce
Jan 1, 2011, 5:10 pm

Last night I watched Skeleton Key with Kate Hudson, Gena Rowlands and John Hurt - a very spooky movie dealing with hoodoo. I watched it because I'd read a couple of places that Cathrine Yronwode's Lucky Mojo Curio Company store was reproduced there. Catherine Yronwode was Christine Wicker's guide to hoodoo in Not In Kansas Anymore. In the movie the store is a pretty matter of fact place with open shelves on which various innocuous bottles are arranged, not spooky at all. Yronwode herself isn't very spooky and seems pretty matter of fact about magic, but still, I was expecting a little more drama from the place, especially after the way it was described in the book. Oh, a reminder, if you're white and want to investigate hoodoo, which is an African American centered religion, look to see if the store you visit has a picture of Martin Luther King, Malcolm X and John F. Kennedy together. Those are the white friendly stores.

67_Zoe_
Jan 1, 2011, 5:26 pm

>65 Citizenjoyce: I think the thing he found most difficult was the constant sense of deceiving people; for example, he felt that he couldn't get involved in a serious relationship, even when he was genuinely interested in the girl, because he was essentially living a lie. Going through the motions of religious practice seemed to be less of a problem, because in many ways he came to appreciate certain aspects of what was being done without fully believing in the principles behind it. For example, he could see the value in getting together with a group of people to discuss their problems and then "pray" for each other, even without actually believing in the efficacy of prayer, because it was a valuable expression of community support.

As usual, Joyce, I've really enjoyed this challenge (even though I didn't quite finish my book in time). I wish it had lasted more than a month.

68Citizenjoyce
Jan 1, 2011, 6:54 pm

Thanks for your contributions, Zoe. I can see that the deception would be difficult. In My Jesus Year while Cohen is upfront about just being there to observe, so not deceptive in that sense, I think his mockery of some of the churches shows that he did deceive people to a degree. He goes to an African Hebrew church that could very well be a manipulative sort of religion, but he shows many of the good aspects of it, then at one point he compares it to Willy Wonka. That seems a little mean spirited and probably did not reflect the face he was showing his guides; however, one probably can't be entirely objective about religious practices that are so different from ones own.

69carlym
Jan 1, 2011, 7:53 pm

One day too late for the TIOLI challenge, I finished Under the Banner of Heaven. It's definitely well-written and interesting, but I do think the author started out with a very anti-religious viewpoint. I think that affected his telling of the story of the Lafferty brothers' horrible crime in some ways. Krakauer continues to treat their crime as having a basis in religion--which in a way it did--but that doesn't account for certain facts that he mentions that to me indicate that they were knowingly using religion as an excuse to do whatever they wanted, such as their drug use in the months before the crime; their convenient ability to have a revelation telling them to do exactly the things they wanted to do; and their reluctance to share their "removal" revelation with the other members of their circle, with whom they normally shared all revelations (a big indication that they knew the murder was wrong).

70_Zoe_
Jan 1, 2011, 7:59 pm

>69 carlym: I'm expecting to finish that one today too, and will be back with more comments later.

Even though we missed the December challenge, at least it fits into January's challenge to read a book rated between 3.8 and 4.2 ;)

71Citizenjoyce
Jan 2, 2011, 12:29 am

Carlym, I think religion is convenient in the way it can be used to justify almost anything. It's been quite some time since I read the book, but as I recall at least one of the guys appeared very religious and at peace with what he had done.

72carlym
Jan 2, 2011, 10:05 am

Yes, one of the guys did--but was it just post-hoc justification? I think people can talk themselves into anything when they want to explain away their bad behavior (and that happens on a much smaller scale all the time). It's very hard to know when someone truly believes they heard the voice of God.

73Citizenjoyce
Jan 2, 2011, 3:06 pm

This is a little late, but I heard Paul Rudnick read this on Prairie Home Companion today: Holly or Challah?
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/2009/12/21/091221sh_shouts_rudnick

74_Zoe_
Jan 3, 2011, 10:03 am

I enjoyed this challenge so much that I created a What We Are Reading: Religionthread in the 2011 group.

75socratus
Fev 1, 2011, 10:42 am

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